Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

And, furthermore, it's a good response to disputes about what is "possible," with the Force, and which "powers" exist - anything is possible.

 

I could have sworn Tim Zahn invented ysalamiri precisely so that Luke couldn't snap his fingers and solve the problem on page 128 (I know he said this, sorry I can't find the link).

And Tim Zahn is one of the most loved Star Wars authors, and I don't think he agrees that the Force should be able to do anything...

 

I think the Force can do anything. It's only limitation is the wielder.

 

Never forget how much being "first" (relatively) has to do with that.

 

He was also working with a very mechanistic conception of the Force highly influenced by RPG mechanics.

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I was never a big fan of the idea of "Jedi robes" but I'd forgotten how much I loved Obi-Wan's old Marvel rags.

 

I don't know if this been discussed in detail before. But after the last jedi and Rebels what your toughts on the force and it's lore. in last jedi, Luke explains that with powerfull light and dark there's a balance, witch may come from mortis arc. We know that there were once prime jedi's who held a balance between light and dark. the mural of the prime jedi is somewhat similar with the one Anakin stands over in overlords. And Rian did watch the mortis arc when making the last jedi, so ach-to may have some connections to Mortis. Maybe we learn more of the prime jedi in 9 trought !the secret jedi text!
Also rebels no only have gotten Bendu but wolfs who are like the bendu and acts as somewhat guardians of the gateways to the world between worlds. I may be wrong but i think in CW in the mortis arc you see wolfs on the walls in overlords around the mural witch anakin stands on. And before the mortis arc in rebels, many tought it was all a dream. But now we know for certain that they did indeed exist and possibly were worshipped as gods by all even jedi and sith. I think the father is oldest character we will ever meet, he maight have been the last of the whills and Anakin was a whill reborn. We know from the father that he and his children abondend the galaxy to mortis 2000 before the clone wars, he also mentions that sith and other force factions would like to exploit their power and it could doom the galaxy forever. I do wonder when we will see them again, i'm sure they will return someday wether that be in future or in the past. with all this new information at hand, how has your interpation of the force it's abilities changed. i used to think the force was all you saw in the movies like all the simple force powers, but then CW, Rebels and last jedi changed all of that to me. The force is all around. I wonder now if Anakin could take down a stardestroyer with the force, since there's noe limit to is power. Like i could see the father take down stardestroyer easy. It*s very facinating all this lore, and i belive the father along with mortis is the key to understanding the force and it'smeanings. just my toughts, be free to share yours.

 

So I assume that in New canon, you have to be very seasoned and experienced in order to cast Force Lightning, and a young dark disciple shouldn't be able to do it when angry. Palpatine, Talzin, Snoke and Dooku were all very old and the Son was ancient and the manifestation of the Dark Side itself. If Anakin or Kylo tried to do it, they probably wouldn't get great results if any, right?

 

I don't know! As we know from Rey all of this is pretty case-by-case, particularly in a moment of particular stress.

 

One aspect of the Jedi beliefs that I disagree with is their policy of restraint when it comes of use of the Force.

If you can sway a disagreeable person's point of view by simply calling on the Force to change their mind, why shouldn't you?

If you can seize an enemy in the Force and slam them into a wall, why wouldn't you do that instead of fighting them?

If you can disarm an opponent by tearing their weapon from their hand with the Force, why would you bother igniting your lightsaber?

I believe in the Jedi way as a whole, but I fear that I wouldn't be able to follow this particular tenement very well. I'd probably only show restraint when other Jedi were watching. If I were alone, I'd be Force Pushing every enemy I encountered and Mind Tricking every intractable being I came across. I suppose a lack of restraint can eventually lead you to abuse the Force, which could open a path to the Dark Side. But using the Force with no restraint is not the same thing as using it to kill, as a Sith would do.

 

I think largely it's because acting in unnecessarily powerful ways is a path to the dark side.

 

So I was thinking, in legends what are the worst black marks of the Jedi order in its history?

The Sith genocide has to be the number one worst thing the order ever did.
Followed by the actions of the Jedi covenant.
Then the order of the terrible glare and Jedi support for the Pius Dea

I would also say the way the order treated Xendor made conflict inevitable.

I also don't think the order of Luke's era had entirely clean hands, the electoral shenanigans in destiny's way, the coup against Daala, and the ordered assassination of co chief of state Jacen solo.

 

The Jedi are kind of a mess in post-prequel publications.

 

I was speaking in a more Watsonian framework than a Doylist one.

 

Not sure what that means! But if it means you were speaking IU rather than OOU, then yeah I totally know, I just think it's interesting how much of a consequence of the prequels that list of things you mentioned is.

 

Watsonian=IU
Doylist=OOU

It's a reference to Sherlock Holmes-Watson is the in universe narrator and Doyle is the out of universe author.

And yes regarding the prequels-I suspect that they did open the door for the Jedi to be interpreted in a more morally grey or even morally unfavorable or even castigating way.

I think that has a lot to do with the OT only giving a mythic pure idea of Jedi Paladins, without the doctrines, institutionalism, clinicalism, and strictures the prequels showed the Jedi having.

Personally I am very thankful the prequels did make this possible-having the Jedi be Paladins of light without fault is rather boring and creatively uninteresting. At least to me.

 

And you'd end up exactly the same as Nahdar Vebb.

They literally dedicated an episode of TCW to why this approach doesn't fly.

 

Wasn't Vebb that Mon Cal Grievous cut down? Who seemed to lack both judgement and any sense of responsibility?

 

I remember recently there being a big debate here about the idea of the Force having a will being new information added by Disney, but where did the phrase "The Will of the Force" originate? And isn't it implied by the phrase, "May the Force be with you"?

 

Yes, the recently Knighted Jedi who thought the Force was a source of power at his beck and call rather than partner and ally.

 

As far as I'm aware the phrase can be traced back at least to Qui-Gon's dialog in TPM that often invoked "the Living Force," "the Will of the Force," etc ("Finding him was the will of the Force, I have no doubt of that") but I think the idea that the Force has a will or intelligence of its own can be traced all the way back to ANH.

"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

To me that exchange reveals an awful lot about the Force and the Jedi's relationship with it; it implies communication, and if the Force is going to control your actions then that in turn implies the Force has a reason for doing so, an investment in whatever actions the Jedi is undertaking. Qui-Gon states the implied relationship more directly.

 

You can't blame the order for that one since they acted on their own and in secret.

I think there is more then that, my impression is that the people making the interpretation of what's happening (for the info books and all that) have grown more... cynical/negative in their interpretation of what the possible implication of what would follow certain stories/happen in-between stories are. F.ex. the Sith genocide was to my understanding created because the sith species was not seen after The Fall of the Sith Empire beside the small mutated enclave on Yavin IV so the info book authors decided that that ment that they had been genocided instead of just saying that they was not seen because the Republic destroyed their fleets and after that they become insular or have it so that Sith infighting diminished their numbers so much that only some small enclaves exist.

The same goes for other information spread around in the older comics/books/RPG-stuff, many of those things have been reinterpretated in a darker way in the newer info books than it feels the original author intended .

 

@The Positive Fan

I could have sworn it appeared in EU sources even before that, but I could be misremembering.

 

You could well be right. TPM is the first time I remember it in that form or similar but maybe someone else has a better recollection?

 

I like them too they look like an elegant dress and it also reminds me of the armor of the TCW Jedi Generals

I'm not a fan neither of the Jedi dressed as Tatooine farmers