Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Spoiler

When I heard that part I wondered what would've happened if Anakin had come forward with his affair with Padme.

 

Spoiler

I think we get a little preview of it when Anakin goes to Yoda for advice. Anakin's not very forthcoming, and Yoda doesn't have much to work with - and, of course, he doesn't know how far gone Anakin is - but the older Jedi doesn't chastise him for having a close friend so much as encourage him to remember what the Jedi believe about death.

 

****Literary/Book Spoilers****

In my humble opinion, the monastic “attachment is forbidden” has proven itself wisdom in canon:

• Anakin ignored it and weds Padme, then kills Padme with Force Choke and a broken heart. He then as Vader commits the Jedi Purge.

• Ben Solo, the fruit of Leia and Han, becomes a Dark Sider and slays his father (patricide), wants to kill his uncle, and possibly due harm to his mother in Rise of Skywalker.

In Legends attachments from Force Users become problematic:

1. Jason and Jaina, brother and sister become enemies.
2. Mara Jade Skywalker perishes.
3. Bastila Shan dies and never sees Revan again, who once freed comes home to his wife deceased.

Attatchment Forbid seems reasonable with this track record and the history if the Jed’aii Tribes that record btither slaying brither and familes of Force users killing one another:

The only two exemptions are:

• Luke leads Vader back to the the Light.

• Revan leads Bastila Shan back to the Light.

 

Though one has to wonder why Jedi teachers are so bad at communicating the actual lesson. Like... how do these people who don't "get it" even become Knights?

 

OoU: because the writers needs Jedi who don't get it.

IU: maybe it is not obvious that they don't get it; they used to get it but changed; they intellectually get it but emotionally really don't.

 

Generally speaking it feels like the worst offenders are people who feel very strongly about their attachments and want to justify themselves, or who have already done something bad and don't want to get in trouble.

 

Another possible OoU reason: the writer don't get it and therefor the characters don't

 

Necessity. During the Great Hyperspace War and Mandalorian Wars, the Order needed more Jedi Knights. An equivalent scenario is in Kingdom of Heaven (2005), Sir Balian de Ibelin knights his whole crusader army to give them confidence and bravery; this actually reslly happened in history.

 

Yep.

 

War can of course engender a lot of hurried promotions but we're talking peacetime, here.

 

can you give some examples of peacetime Jedi that don't get it, because I'm right now drawing blank but that could just be my bad memory

 

The post of Matt's I quoted initially? I'm not sure where the room for confusion is.

Was Dooku leapfrogged up the ladder during a war I'm unfamiliar with? Was the "Jedi seeker" he's talking about? These are both people who seem to have misunderstood Jedi teachings while they were Jedi and yet risen to positions of prominence anyway.

 

It's easy to see someone rise through the ranks as a Jedi if they have technical skill with the Force and an academic understanding of Jedi's teachings but not able to put them into practice in their own lives due to personal misgivings.

 

Not to presume, but I think what Gamiel is saying is that most Jedi don't seem to run into this problem, so it may not be a problem of the Jedi overall, just certain people not doing well with it. I think I fall generally along those lines, though it seems like a lot of Jedi have the impression they'll get in a lot of trouble, and I wonder where that comes from. Probably from a perceived rigidity on the Council, but likewise I think it makes sense for anxiety around things to worsen the harder you're working to keep a secret.

Spoiler

Yula Braylon, the Jedi Seeker in question, sought to keep her son a secret, and did a lot of work to stay near him in the Temple, and then when she was found out by a crime boss and blackmailed, it forces her to do increasingly shady things to keep from getting caught. And they don't even kick her out of the Order! It just gets worse and worse as it snowballs. Dooku, on the other hand, just becomes obsessed with Serenno, and blatantly continues to insert himself in ways that make things worse for everyone, justifying more and more until finally deciding to leave and rule Serenno himself. And even then he doesn't face a lot of pushback when he quits! He offers to turn in his lightsaber and Yoda's like Nah keep it. You're still kind of a Jedi.

I think this is what happens to Anakin, too: the guilt of keeping this secret and wanting both things to work is what undoes him, not "love" itself.

 

I’m loving all these rule-breaking Jedi in new canon. Makes me think of the EU’s conception of the Jedi before the prequels, up to and including the Ki-Adi-Mundi comics released only months before TPM.


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Just wondering, what is it that you like about them?

 

As I said, lol, it reminds me of the EU’s idea of the Jedi during the WEG/Bantam era, like all the Jedi from the Adventure Journal stories and Corran’s grandfather and stuff.


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I like them too, but I like them because it makes the prequel era Jedi seem, rightfully, less stodgy.

 

I'm still struggling to make the leap. Isn't Dooku, before he falls, typically described as having been one of the best and brightest of the Jedi?

How can you be "best and brightest" and also "derp we surpress our emotions derp" unless the latter is an acceptable and widespread school of thought in Jedi teaching?

Anakin ("we are encouraged to love") is an intellectual giant in comparison.

 

The Jed’aii had families, but siblings began to slaughter eaxh other Cain and Abel style over the Light and Dark Sides. So much like Investiture Controversy, where the Roman Catholic Church trying to put a stop to corruption and familia reigns of terror and power made all priests celibate. The Jedi did something similiar, but then it created, as in Roman Church, another problem, if attachment is forbidden (marriage+family), that could fuel other feelings that lead to the Dark Side, ergo Anakin Skywalker.

The problem is as Yoda said “[The Dark Side] is quicker and more seductive.” The Jedi Order of Anakin’s time should have spent more time training Jedi to meditate, commune, and know the Force, specifically Ashla (Light Side); and then teach them to move rocks, wield lightsabers and etc. The problem is if a Jedi wields the Force enforce without mastering meditation and self disicipline; the said Jedi can easily fall prey to the Dark Side which offers more power displays. We have to educate next gen Jedi in self restraint and communing in the Force or else they will be tempted to use their force powers to control and exert adolescent feelings of superiority

@Kyber Acyk
@Adalia-Durron

 

I don't think you're doing a great job at following the conversation.

 

Oh I see what you mean now.

I think it's really not that Dooku (or Anakin) doesn't - or can't - understand, it's that Dooku (and Anakin) complains about the teachings when the teachings are keeping him from doing something he wants to do. Anything that tells them that what they're doing is wrong seems like a constraint - it's the having to stop doing the thing and admit you're wrong that's the problem, especially when, as with Master Baylor, you thought you'd get away with it at first.

But yeah, it's probably also true that there are much sterner Jedi among their ranks, or that there's a pervasive issue of certain Jedi being very dogmatic or more ascetic than others - I imagine Mace Windu isn't someone you go to for emotional support when you're afraid you've messed up, for example.

I think what I mostly mean is that I don't think there's anything wrong with the religious idea of nonattachment (that clinging to temporal things, in a world where everything temporal is impermanent, is a cause of great suffering...and that some callings and occupations rely on your readiness to walk away from things in the name of duty) and it's applicability to the Jedi is extremely apparent...not that everyone handles it well.

 

One possibility is found in TLJ and the Classic Trilogy. That only when a master steps away from Padawan and they begin to venture in the Force solo as a Jedi Knight does teachings about the Force become clearer: “we are what they grow beyond.” (Yoda, The Last Jedi).

 

You know how this Jedi Sufi rolls.

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Interestingly, here's George Lucas himself on the attachment thing.