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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BobaMatt, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    In the meantime, though, I'm looking forward to Force Collector and the Kylo comics.
     
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  2. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    It may not be that the teachings differ drastically. I tend to think of it as more of an issue of focus than of philosophy. The Jedi Order of the PT vested more authority in the Jedi Council than it did individual Jedi's direct communion with the Force. So someone like Qui-Gon frequently rankled the Council because he put more stock in his direct experience and communion with the Force than with the recieved wisdom of the Council.

    Dogmatism rather than gnosis.

    It became about structures and regulations more than about direct understanding and higher intuition. Like the difference between Taoists and Confucians.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
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  3. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    While I doubt Ep 9 will give us to much onto what Rey will do as a Jedi Master....I do think that hers might be a lot less....Structured...more organic and structures, less instutionalized more...One with nature kinda deal.
     
  4. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Not entirely sure being more like nature is necessarily a good thing. We've tried to evolve past the dog-eat-dog natural selection type of life and shouldn't go back to it. Jedi-type activities are not natural in any case. How many animals do you see meditating in the wild?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  5. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well maybe not to that extreme but more like the symbolic relationship.

    Civilization and Nature...One taking from the other and vice versa.

    Compared to the Empire/Sith which just twists and creates perversions of everything
     
  6. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Sorry for the late reply:
    You know, if you believe that the Confederate Senate is the real leadership of CIS do I have a bridge in Broklyn that I'm willing to sell cheaply.

    That don't stop rubber barons from those groups to side with Dooku, together with ships, guns and droids.

    I think that was what they tried to do at Genosis. To bad that even if they had succeeded so would the war have broken out anyway :(

    And it would have gone no-where because Palpatine would have sabotaged it. :(

    We are not talking about their complains about Republics laws against strip-mining, slavery, attacking planets, and experimenting on people here, right?
     
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  7. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    In this case "more natural" wouldn't be "survival of the fittest," which itself is arguably a mischaracterization of what goes on in nature especially between species.

    For instance, the whole "alpha" wolf narrative where the pack follows to biggest baddest toughest SOB around is essentially bantha shavit only observed in captive animals amongst strangers. It's a trauma response. In nature packs are organized around elders, not "tough guys." They are families. Most species practice mutual aid. Not survival of the fittest. Moreover, mutual aid is also observed across species.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
  8. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2018
    On top of that, "nature" in Star Wars includes the Force and the way it alters the general state of the universe
     
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  9. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Your talk about families doesn't apply as Jedi have none. Being a celibate Jedi is the textbook opposite of nature.

    The jedi organization is not a family. You can't even discuss your natural desires with them without being threatened with expulsion

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  10. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I think many Jedi would disagree.
     
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  11. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Ahsoka thought they were such a great family... oh wait.

    As in real life families, you often don't find out their true nature until something bad happens. As the saying goes, you learn who your real friends are. Many Jedi who had a charmed life would of course give a positive opinion of the Council. Yet we know even Qui-Gon didn't think highly of them.

    The Jedi remind me of the Catholic Church I was forcibly raised in by my mother. Nice on the outside, rotten when it comes down to the wire (no offense to anyone, just my own experience).
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  12. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    We dont actually know that about the entire history of the Jedi Order, we know that about the PT era and just before. Though I wasn't referring to the Jedi as a family, that was exclusively about wolves and the mischaracterization of "alpha" and "beta" males in captive wolf behavior versus wild wolf behavior.

    In nature, intra-species relations tend to be that of mutual aid. It's not limited exclusively to family groups or tribes. Mutual aid has also been observed in interspecies relationships as well.

    Point being, "nature" does not exclusively operate in the mode of competition. As such, a Jedi way being more "natural" would be less dogmatic, more open to inspiration and intuition. More directly in accord with the way or the will of the Force than it is reliant on dogmatic adherence to a particular interpretation of the Jedi code.

    Similar to the difference between legalistic religious scholars versus mystics. Or that between Confucians and Taoists.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
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  13. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    You remind me a lot of my father. He's also into Sufism and mysticism. As I tell him, the reason people fall back onto rules and dogma is because there is no mysticism. There is no Force or supernatural power (or if there is, we can't access it so that's basically the same). As such, the rules are all one has because people are constantly filling in blanks for "mysticism" etc. that doesn't exist. Time and history have shown that repeatedly. And thus the rules get corrupted with no spiritual backup because no spiritual backup exists--it's in the imagination.

    In Star Wars, we have no proof other than characters' asserted belief that the Force has a will or controls anything. Jedi's powers are not proof. That would be like the X-Men saying their powers are a connection with the divine. Even Magneto never claimed this.

    Note both the Sith and the Jedi claim they are following the will of the Force, and that the Force is on their side. In the Return of the Jedi novelization, Palpatine muses that the dark side always wins and is the strongest power, and is the true will of the universe. At that point in time, he had no reason to believe he was wrong, and might not even afterwards as he caused massive destruction that can never be undone even with his death. Who do you believe?

    The simplest answer is there is no will of the Force and both sides are telling themselves and others what they want to believe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  14. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006


    You can assert your personal non-belief, but it doesn't help in this discussion at all.

    Especially because we *do* in fact have proof the Force exists simply because that is the textual construction of the very universe. Star Wars facts #1 the Force is.

    You could approach this from the Han Solo skeptic angle, but then that essentially takes you out of the discussion that relies on the basic facts of the universe itself. You're currently unable to let go of your personal OOU biases to actually substantively engage this topic. Especially when an allegory is drawn from the real world. It trips you up and you fall back on "I am an atheist because religious people treated me badly," instead of understanding what's being conveyed to illustrate how a thing in Star Wars might go.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
  15. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    We know the Force has a will and it's against the darkness because generally speaking even dark side characters observe and acknowledge this, from Darth Plagueis to Supreme Leader Snoke.
     
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  16. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Well, that and we've never seen any scientific proof, but I guess pointing that out would lessen the obvious aim of the personal bent of your post.

    So I assume why that was left out of your post. You're not helping your claim of objectivity here.

    I will concede that Force ghosts likely indicate that the universe is good, I forgot about them. But we now have the massive question of why villains aren't afraid of Force Hell. Or maybe it doesn't exist? But that's a question on why all villains who have supernatural proof continue to do evil (Dr. Doom goes back to being evil after literally visiting hell in triumph and torment).
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  17. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    No Han says "Hell" in Empire.

    It's just again..at the end of the day these are fictional stories.

    Fictional stories allow for the Villain to come back from the brink even if they have done objectively horrible things that the real world would consider inexcusable.

    Good truimphs over evil and this is a fairy tale.

    As Freddie Prince Jr said "Luke Skywalker is Cinderalla/Sleeping Beauty talks to creatures has a fairy god father instead of a mother and beats the evil wizard" (This was censored version of his rant)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2019
  18. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Good catch. The question now is, if Force heaven has been proven, is Force hell automatically proven as well?
     
  19. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well in the films...No...But the EU had something

     
  20. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Yeah, but that's not canon (I miss Legends more than anyone on this forum probably, but what's done is done).

    There's also the element that Force ghosting/heaven only seems to be available to those with a high midichlorian count. If Luke wanted to use that as proof to, say, make the Pyke syndicate and Hutts turn good, they'll say it won't apply to them.
     
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  21. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    IDK.

    For me I just don't apply to much real world logic into this...It's a weird fantasy setting, you can only go so far.
     
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  22. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Fair enough.

    Force ghosts are a strange outlier where even characters in the scene with them don't ask obvious questions like, "What's heaven like? Can you bring my mother to talk to me? Why have you never shown up before when I could have used your help?"

    Those scenes pull me out of the story far more than any special effects ever could.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  23. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    BUT

    I will say a more interesting discussion is...HOW MUCH "Real world morality" does Star Wars apply.

    Obviously there is the basic lesson of "Be good don't be evil"

    but then you get to stuff like, Vader's redemption and Kylo's possible redemption and that's when "Real World Morality" in my mind starts taking a back seat in terms of what redemption is all about yada yada......And I guess that's more of a case by case basis on whose writing the story.

    Like if you said if there is a Star Wars hell...Vader would be there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2019
  24. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    We do know that the Jedi way was really not the way to go for Kylo. He was given a weapon and martial training. He's the last kind of person you want to give that to.

    If he had anger issues, perhaps he should have been enrolled in boxing or some other violent sport. Yeah, it's not "classy" but if he thus unleashes his aggression in a controlled arena, things might have been better for the galaxy.

    This is where the Jedi's "one size fits all because we say so, become a celibate non-attachment monk now!" really lets characters in their universe down.

    We also don't know if Force ghosting is truly an enlightened state or not. Obi-Wan urging Luke to kill Vader would indicate probably not. In fact, Force ghosts may be nothing more than a "backup" of a person's memories and personality imprinted (possibly onto dark matter or dark energy) using the Force, no different than backing up a droid or the way Sith Lords backed themselves up into holocrons in the EU.

    Certainly no one in-universe in the EU proposed that Darth Andeddu's spirit in his holocron was proof he had a connection with the supernatural divine, yet that claim is as valid as the Jedi's claims Force ghosts give them that connection.

    Yoda calling lightning down though does indicate actual physical power.

    In Canon, Dr. Cylo cheated death multiple times. No one claimed that he understood the true will of the universe or that he and the Empire were in the right as a result.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  25. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Force ghosts dont actually indicate a Force heaven or hell. We know Sidious wants immortality for his ego, and the eschatology of Star Wars is essentially that all souls merge into the Oversoul of the Force. Individual distinctions cease to exist. Sidious, in his obsession with immortality(especially as we saw him in Dark Empire and perhaps now in Canon), is clearly afraid of that. Given his attachment to his ego, experiencing the dissolution of self upon death is likely as torturous as the descriptions of the torment of hell.

    By contrast, Jedi spirits are beings that have dissolved the self before(or just before or immediately upon) death. Whether we turn to the conversation between Yoda and Qui-Gon in the ROTS novelization or the Yoda arc or TCW, we see that the way of immortality is actually the surrender of self on the deepest level. So, I doubt Yoda is just regular old Yoda relaxing the amorphous beyond feeling chill. He and the other spirits come and go as the Force wills. In From A Certain Point of View we get Claudi Grey's short story "Master and Apprentice" that actually starts with a description of what it's like for Qui-Gon to apparate before Obi-Wan.

    Re: Obi-Wan telling Luke he had to kill Vader

    I dont think that's an indication of it not being and enlightened state. He had literally just finished with the "certain point of view" talk. To Obi-Wan, and to Vader himself, and to some extent the Force itself... Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are somewhat distinct presences battling within a single body. It's a spiritual truth, one that Luke refuses to accept and that nevertheless spurs his natural rebelliousness prompting him to find another way. Jedi spirits, as mouthpieces for the will of the Force, are telling Luke just what he needs to hear to fulfill the will of the Force.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019