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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BobaMatt, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. JediKnight75

    JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2011
    I think so. In TLJ Luke says balance was restored after Palpatine was defeated at Endor. Also, the prequels say the prophecy could be misread. I think there's an arguement for that in the sense of Anakin being the one element Palpatine couldn't control or predict. His involvement is what sent the chain of events leading to Palpatine's defeat. So he both directly and indirectly destroyed the Sith. Palpatine would have won in the prequels without Anakin. Without Anakin, Order 66 would have killed most of the Jedi and the temple would still have fallen. However, Palpatine corrupted Anakin through his attachment issues. These same struggles caused him to have kids and turn on Palpatine to save his son. So the Sith were defeated. We do know Palpatine returned afterwards, but Anakin's actions paved the way for Palpatine's second defeat. Leia had a son who was trained by Luke. While he fell, both of Anakin's children were in position to train and guide Rey. Leia and Rey both redeemed Ben who was another descendent of Anakin. While Rey beat Palpatine on her own, Ben's involvement helped ensure she did so in a way where she wasn't corrupted.

    While Palpatine's final defeat was through his granddaughter, that wouldn't have happened had Anakin never been a Jedi. Palpatine's first victory would have been far more complete. Even if Palpatine still lost at Endor, the First Order would have won. Leia wouldn't have been there to start the Resistance. By not being a good Jedi, Anakin had a family that could help beat Palpatine. This family inspired Rey and helped guide her. While incredibly powerful on her own, Luke and Leia were still there to help her at important times. While she could have won without their guidance, their influence was still important.

    Also, without the Skywalker line, Palpatine probably would have put more effort into finding and corrupting Rey meaning she wouldn't have been there to defeat him
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  2. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Yep. The answer's in front of us for years and people have been saying it for years: bringing balance to the Force has nothing to do with killing Palpatine. The Jedi vastly outnumbered 2 lone Sith for a millennium. Anakin killed many of those Jedi to bring it to Yoda, Kenobi, and him and Palpatine. He brought balance to the Force. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most correct one.

    Balance to the Force: :yoda::ben: -- :vader::emperor:

    If Palpatine got off his throne to actually do the work of killing Jedi rather than ordering Vader to do it, he'd be the Chosen One.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
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  3. JediKnight75

    JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 15, 2011
    Except George Lucas has explicitly said that balance is the destruction of the Sith and as far as I know that hasn't been contradicted. Luke says balance was restored after ROTJ and the goal in TROS is the defeat the Sith. While darkness is natural in nature, drawing in the dark side still throws the force out or balance
     
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  4. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Hes not canon anymore, otherwise we wouldn't consider the st canon

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk
     
  5. JediKnight75

    JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 15, 2011
    I also use stuff from the ST to defend my point and George Lucas's ideas are still pretty influential
     
  6. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Balance to the Force is definitely not 2 Jedi/2 Sith (which also isn't even true in the canon now with other survivors and Force-users).
     
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  7. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    It's an interesting idea for other universes, but it seems to go against most of what we have in Star Wars, narratively, mostly in that it means that evil is a necessary part of peace and that the best situation for the Jedi would be to sort of broker an arrangement with the Sith and let them do their thing far away.
     
  8. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    You're acting on the assumption that "Bringing balance to the Force" was supposed to be a good thing. No one ever said it was.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  9. JediKnight75

    JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 15, 2011
    In TROS Anakin tells Rey to bring balance to the force in the context of defeating Palpatine. Luke talks about balance being restored after Palpatine's first death. Both lines in the ST suggest balance is through defeating the Sith. If it was about there being an equal number, than the force should have been out of balance in ROTJ and Rey defeating Palpatine in TROS wouldn't make sense. Ben had turned away from the dark side, so the numbers were no longer equal
     
  10. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Having 2 dark-siders and 2 light-siders (which isn't even what happens, as we know from the shows/books/comics), doesn't even accomplish or do anything. How is two dark-siders ruling the galaxy, with the help of other dark-siders, plus two light-siders in hiding, along with some other light-siders, "balance" in any way?
     
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  11. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    good point. It's a balance of numbers only (Jedi Councilors and Sith Lords, pretty sure new EU doesn't have hordes of Councilors surviving), not remotely in power. I guess it was a numbers game all along.

    Seriously, at some point we have to accept the chosen one prophecy is like a real world horoscope. You can squint eventually to make it fit, but realistically for any practical purpose it's meaningless. Pretty sure 99% of the citizens in-universe would say the same.

    It's like trying to play prophecy of the popes, if you're familiar with that
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
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  12. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Yeah the prophecy was vague, even more now with the ST, but I don't think it makes sense under any interpretation for it to be a numbers game.
     
  13. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I've said this elsewhere, but in the cosmology of Star Wars thinking there has to be Sith is like saying a "balanced meal" is nutritious but also has broken glass in it. We know balance is a good thing because of the way characters talk about balance - which, by the way, includes/accepts the existence of a dark side without accepting the Sith.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
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  14. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Except we know even the "wisest" characters in Star Wars, including Mace Windu, Yoda, and Luke Skywalker, often are just outright wrong. Mace about killing Palpatine, Yoda about how serious Anakin's problem in ROTS was, and Luke said he was wrong to hide on Ahch-To.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  15. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    For me, until we're explicitly told otherwise, yes.

    My working headcanon (read: desperate straw clutch) until the High Republic stuff voids it:

    The Force's status quo is big dark side baddies rocking the boat every couple of centuries and the Jedi whac-a-moling them before it can become an insurmountable problem.

    At the onset of the PT, however, we've had a millennium of our heroes failing to whac-a-mole the ultimate bad guys (good job, Bane) and the Force is ridiculously out of sorts. Jedi abilities are weaker than ever, untrained urchins can't just float brooms with the power of imagination, there are no magic healing babies, or dyads and -- even more importantly -- there's no natural "pull to the light" to help people stay on the straight and narrow: the dark side has never been harder to resist and overcome. As a result, the Jedi become exceedingly draconian, which only makes things worse. Nothing short of a miracle can fix things, and so that's exactly what the Force brings about in Anakin.

    Anakin successfully (albeit eventually) destroys the Sith and, with it, restores the old status quo. The Force is back in business. Awakens, if you will.

    The ST, then, shows us what is "supposed" to happen. The balance falters -- as it always has and always will -- and is then almost immediately set right before it can reach "Our ability to use the Force has diminished" levels. Things only get as hairy as they do because evil still has a lot of its old toys from that particularly nasty stretch to play with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  16. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    That's an interesting take. And kind of explains, as well, why stormtrooper cadets like Finn naturally broke their indoctrination. Assuming Jannah and her crew were also Force-sensitives.

    Anakin is the only one with a naturally wide enough open "door" to be able to press the proverbial reset button at that point, but it also means he was perhaps more susceptible to the allure of the dark side in that time.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
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  17. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I really dislike TROS but Finn being Force sensitive is one of my favourite things in it, and has retroactively improved TFA.

    . . .

    Now if only Kylo had remained the big bad, finally managed to defeat Rey after a hard fought battle and we'd been left with Finn at the end there to stop him.

    [​IMG]

    (He had a baaaad feeling about him.)

    That'd have worked fine even without Force sensitivity, really. I'm just imagining Kylo trying to stop a blaster bolt and being all surprised Pikachu when Finn wills it through.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  18. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Just because Finn is Force sensitive doesn't mean he stood a chance against Kylo. I see Kylo carrying Finn off and brutally "reconditioning" him until he's a psychotic inquisitor (as shown how Inquisitors are made in Jedi Fallen Order).
     
  19. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    Finn "not standing a chance" and winning anyway would kinda be the point.
     
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  20. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    I'm imagining a scene where Finn has unbelievably just killed Kylo, and Pryde, Hux, and even Phasma and all the other First Order higher ups and stormtroopers (yes, evey Tr8tor!) get on their knees and proclaim Finn the new Supreme Leader of the First Order.
     
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  21. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
     
  22. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    Just revisiting this to say that I'll be shifting the goal posts a lot as time goes on.

    Like, the chances of there being no dyad in High Republic are 3,720 to 1.
     
  23. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I like redeemed Ben well enough, but I definitely wish we'd gotten a moment of Finn using the Force - not for "cool factor" but kind of just to underline what we're learning about this group of stormtroopers, about the awakening in the Force, about destiny and believing in yourself etc etc. Like imagine that the explosives didn't work but Finn encouraged Jannah and the other Orbak riders to try and topple the command ship together, all of them closing their eyes, taking a deep breath, and holding up their hands in front of them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  24. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Jannah won't be convinced. She'll tell finn "that's not how the force works!!!"

    Audience groans

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
  25. Xammer

    Xammer Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 31, 2009
    Am I the only one who after watching TFA thought that the movie had done away with the sensitive/insensitive dichotomy and was moving towards "everyone can do it with enough motivation and hard work, though also there's some innate talent component"? Specifically, I got this notion after the Finn/Kylo duel, where it was clear that Rey was better than him but not that Finn was incapable.