Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

True while people would rather have someone back even if on life support is that REALLY a life worth living.

 

Unfortunately people in the real world who through either accident or mistake of genetics who did absolutely nothing wrong live lives in constant pain and in far worse shape than ROS Palpatine. But that's getting into assisted suicide issues etc. that don't really have a place here.

But the fact of the matter is, if people arbitrarily decide what life is worth living and what not... Yeah that's already a messy issue in the real world.

If someone wants to use the tech to come back from death, as long as they don't hurt anyone else (this may then go into whether the clone body has rights or is sentient etc., and even the Jedi have no leg to stand in that argument due to their history of using clones as practical war slaves), who are the Jedi to stop them? Who are the Jedi to decide whether that life is worth living or not for someone else? That decision is for the individual in question to make alone, not the Jedi forcing their views on them.

 

The way I differentiate the two scenarios is that becoming Force Ghosts is a person dying, becoming one with the Cosmic Force, but being able to re-manifest one's consciousness as a separate individual from the general oneness of the Force. Dark Siders like Palpatine, Momin, or the Ushruu Enchantress (or Maul to a lesser extend) on the other hand tether themselves to the physical world and their consciousness never joins with the Cosmic Force.

It's dying and then returning from death as part of the Force vs refusing to die in the first place, hanging on to a diminished physical existance.

 

At this point SW just loses relevance to the real world, as it's basically adding a "diminished physical existence" as punishment for being bad, when in reality people due to pure bad genetics (the Force, as you will) end up with a diminished physical existence anyway from no fault of their own.

The late Stephen Hawking for example was in far worse shape than Palpatine. He would have been happy to have even some of ROS Palpatine's mobility.

Also you haven't addressed that Dr. Cylo was quite evil and had no diminished physical existence in any of his resurrected bodies.

 

I don't think there's any inherent moral judgement on the conditions themselves, and since we are talking about a fictional universe with confirmed supernatural forces, the morality will always differ from considerations in reality; they are not directly applicable. Furthermore, the conditions Palpatine&co are left in are self-inflicted, rather than due to chance or accident.

As for Cylo, I'd say that from the point of view of the metaphysics of the Force, each of Cylo's Clones was an individual being existing separately within the Living Force, the same way that Jango, Boba, and all the Clone Troopers were individuals.

 

Cylo 4, 5 or whatever number had the entire memories and personality of the predecessor, quite different from Jango, Boba, and the clone troopers. For most people that means they are basically back.

No one's going to quibble on if Cylo 5 actually built Vader's suit or it was really Cylo 1 and Cylo 5 just happens to have his personality, memories, and acts the way Cylo 1 does. Cylo 5 himself considers himself to be the one who built Vader's suit (despite it technically being Cylo 1 or 2 or whatever), and even Vader agrees.

 

Let's just say there's a qualitative difference between being something along the lines of a Taoist immortal and a lich.

Yoda is immortal, and he is more powerful than you can possibly imagine(as he is essentially the Force now).

Sidious is a lich. And could, ultimately, be destroyed.

Cylo's immortality is technological. It's not particularly related to the Force. He's basically downloading his personality from body to body, not spirit.

The situation is not different than it was in Legends. Sith ghosts were qualitatively different from Force spirits, and frequently were tied to locations, objects, or sometimes bodies.

IG: @jedisufism

 

The comic had Cylo acting very emotionally, reminiscing about the good old days and saying how Vader is more machine than man, stating he himself was more human.

If you've finished Picard, you know a similar issue turns up at the end.

 

And? That's not unusual in sci-fi.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Well I'd discuss more but I don't want to spoil for any Trek fans who don't have CBS. Suffice it to say I think it supports the idea that Cylo is actually a full person transfer and not anything less. Even though the franchises aren't connected, the start point and end points are the same for each respective character involved.

 

I'm not so sure the Star Trek thing you're referencing would necessarily be quite the same as a Vulcan transferring their katra.



IG: @jedisufism

 

Keep in mind katras seem more like a memory transfer. That's it. Spock was still a fully functioning sentient being after he already transferred his katra to give a very moving goodbye to Kirk.

The only reason Spock in Trek 3 was a lunatic was because he was basically mentally a baby while being rapidly aged. And presumably Genesis didn't regenerate the memories. That's it.

 

The lore has that it is the eternal life-force. It's more than memory. Sarek transferred part of his katra to Michael Burnham to save her life, and then they were connected telepathically across the galaxy.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Fair enough, I forgot about that Discovery part.

At this point Cylo needs to be revisited to clarify how he connects with Palpatine's return. I don't have the 9 novel, but I hadn't heard he was in it. It would have been a good way to connect the canon.

 

He wasn't referenced in the adult novelization. Sounds like the junior novelization has more canon connective tissue, don't know about Cylo.

IG: @jedisufism

 

I’ve been meaning to share this for ages now! Anyway I feel like it fits here.

 

This interview with Lawrence Kasdan is sort of relevant to this thread: https://uproxx.com/movies/solo-a-star-wars-story-cameo/ .

In it, Kasdan says that in his mind Han still didn't believe in the Force up until his death in the Force Awakens (interesting, considering Kasdan himself contributed to the script where Han says, "It's true, all of it" and "That's not how the Force works").

As Han is clearly aware of the physical component of the Force (telekinesis for example, and his knowledge of Kylo's power), that means that for Han, there is a distinction between the genetic component of Force abilities (telekinesis, lightning, etc.) and the religious aspect (this event was the will of the Force, etc.).

Force ghosts aren't addressed, but maybe Han feels they are an illusion or some sort of energy-based mental backup (no different than backing up a droid). Keep in mind that no Force ghost has ever said anything they didn't already know in life, nor do they talk about what the afterlife is like or anything like that.

And Kasdan seems adamant that Han did not believe in the religious aspect of the Force. One of the flaws with the way people in both real life fandom and in-universe deal with the Force is the expectation that if you see their abilities, you automatically have to believe in the other religious or divine aspects of Force philosophy. But that shouldn't be the case. As I like to mention, no one in the Marvel universe worships Charles Xavier or the X-Men despite their mutant abilities being confirmed multiple times.

 

I think the below says it all about how out of touch the Jedi and their in-universe supporters were.

 

Do we know that Qui-Gon never told Anakin that Jedi couldn't marry? Or that the Jedi Council/Obi-Wan didn't give Anakin a full brief on what he was signing up for before he became a Padawan?

I think the question is more about what it's reasonable to allow a 9-year-old to consent to, rather than the Jedi hiding the small print.

 

The whole recruiting someone as a kid, before even puberty, is itself a major problem.