"UNLIMITED POWER!" and so did Palpatine really have it?

Anyone with an understanding of CPR can help "save others from death".

 

The unlimited power is that of the dark side. The Sith believe that the dark side is the pathway to abilities that the Jedi consider unnatural. When Mace is killed, Palpatine is letting him and Anakin know that he was faking. He had all the power in the world to take him out, but he didn't. He wanted Anakin to do what he did. It's not political power. It's the dark side. The Sith believe in its power whole heartedly. But they don't see the truth that the Jedi do.

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda: "No. Quicker, easier. More seductive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."


Vader: "Your powers are weak, old man. You should not have come back."

Ben: "If you strike me down now, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."


Yoda: ". . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."

 

I know what you mean, but we don't know that Darth Plagueis the wise actually had this power. It is based on what a sith lord told a young but extremly powerful Jedi Knight who Darth Sidious wanted to convert to the dark side.

If their had been a scene in the movie where Darth Sidious had been telling Count Dooku of this power, i would say ok. But Sidious knows ( I still don't know how he knows )that Anakin has forseen Padme's death. He knows Anakin would do anything to keep her alive. Remember Lies, deceit and creating mistrust are the way of the Sith. And Anakin was what Sidious wanted, and he found a way to get him.

 

Firstly, I dont think Sidious had the power all along to take Mace down. He needed Anakin to step in to save him. The "unlimited power" line was just reflecting that he had now "won". Anakin had turned. The jedi were doomed etc. He had the power and nothing could stop him. Sidious also see's his lightning as a reflection/symbol of the power of the dark side. Its viewed as their greatest physical weapon. On top of this, the Sith view physical power as the ultimate power.

But the Sith are more powerful - in a physical sense. Lucas has said that himself. But this kind of power isnt the only kind of course and the Jedi will tell you that there is more important things - "luminous beings are we...not this crude matter".

 

Then who was the "only one" to have acheived the power? If he's referring to the Shaman of the Whills (or however that undeveloped story goes) then he's pursuing a power that neither Anakin, and I'm assuming Palpatine as well, don't want. I thought it was pretty clear that he was referring to Plagueis, to build upon the story he had told Anakin (otherwise the Plagueis story is a waste of a scene).

I figure the "unlimited power" line just emphasize to the audience that the fact that he was playing Anakin for a fool and to emphasize to Mace that he wasn't defenseless. I do believe that Sidious was truly beaten by Mace (i.e. he was cornered and couldn't gain the upper hand on his own), and then he faked losing his power to force Anakin to step in. But once Mace is unarmed, and Palpatine says the line, it is to show that Palpatine was still strong, that the power of the dark side gave him almost endless stamina [which again, to contrast this to his earlier pleading ("I'm too weak"), emphasizes that he was manipulating the situation, and not sincere]. I also think you could reasonably call the discussion about whether or not Palpatine manipulated the entire fight, even before Anakin's arrival, back into question. In the script it says that right before Palpatine got kicked in the face that he was beginning to look tired, but this is apparently not the case, just as he wasn't losing his power.

 

Plagueis is real and Palpatine did tell the truth, just not all of it. It's his style. Though we're getting a bit too far off topic talking about Plagueis power, since there's another thread for that. So we can continue that there. As to how Palpatine knew, remember that Anakin doesn't know he is a Sith. So Anakin can sit there and stew about her, while Palpatine reads him like an open book. The boy isn't hiding his thoughts and feelings from Palpatine, because he doesn't realize that he has to. This is why Obi-wan cautioned Luke to bury his feelings when facing the Sith. They will learn the truth otherwise. Such is their way.

Palpatine always had the power to take out Mace. He just used this to get Anakin on his side. Now that the boy has shown up, Palpatine can think on his feet and adjust his plan. He can now make the boy choose sides and what better way, than to fake being unable to stop Mace from killing him.

 

I don't get this post Sinister!??
First you are 100% certain that the Plageuis story is real, but we have no evidence for it. Then we have evidence that Mace overpowered Sideous, facts coming from Lucas, and you ignore that to fit your theory? Please do explain.
I know that Palpatine was faking his weakness, but he did try to unleash his "ultimate power" (if that is how you interpret it) but failed.

I much more agree with master_Shaitain above who argues that "ultimate power" refers to how Palpatine has acquired an ultimate power in Anakin. Remember that Palpatine even says as much to Yoda - Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us. If so, Palpatine cannot, and does not, have ultimate power!

 

Also, it's possible Palpatine has many spies that report on the comings and goings of Jedi ( hinted at in EU ).

 

If you throw a fight, you are still beaten. Lucas says that Mace overpowered Sidious, and he did; I don't think you can argue that he didn't. But did Sidious allow himself to be overcome? I personally am beginning to think so.

And that last bit about the "ultimate power" quote. I really think it makes more sense at that moment in time for him to be saying "Fool! I'm not as defenseless as you might think!" opposed to "I have Anakin now, YAY!" I really don't think that gloating over Anakin fits the scene as well as gloating over the fact that he deceived Mace and has the power to kill him. At that point in time, it's likely that Anakin thought Sidious was indeed LOSING his power, I doubt he expected Sidious to spring back to life and kill Mace. I really don't think there's any deeper meaning beyond something to the effect of "YOU FELL FOR IT!"

 

I think Sinister is right on with this one.

How many times did a young Anakin openly vent his frustrations to his "doting-mentor"? We can only guess. But at the same time, we know from the dialogue in ROTS how fiercely Anakin defends Palpatine. Given his conversation with Kenobi after the Jedi Council session, I believe that Anakin must have at least vented, or wore his thoughts openly upon his sleeve whenever he was around the Chancellor.

What I wonder: is how much of the information; or lessons as Palpatine called them, were in fact Sith Teachings. One only has to re-watch the Opera Scene to catch my drift on this...

 

I don't think Sinister is right with this one - and I still argue that Lucas has argued my case. BUT, as for your last comment - I find that scene most interesting. Note how Sideous also says: "It is not a secret the Jedi WOULD teach you" - almost as if he is implying that the Jedi knew it, but wouldn't share it. Kind of a: come to dear old papa, and I'll teach you thing.

 

I don't think Palpatine had unlimited power, because if he did he would have defeated all four Jedi in his office on his own without Anakin's interference and he would have been able to destroy Yoda. He's saying UNLIMITED POWER in a blaze of mad glory since Mace was of the first in the line of Jedi to be killed in the purge after committing treason.

 

One of the ancient Sith Lords, such as Naga Sadow.

All I know is I don't think it was Vectivus.

 

Palpatine is very sick, and very shrewd. He probably is saying that the Dark Side of the Force is the ultimate power and he definetly has it.

 

Cade Skywalker



I would say if there's one it was Plagueis, but I'm not sure he wasn't doing what Legacy has shown Cade doing, with a sort of Force Defibrilator.

That said, from a purely film perspective I don't think it's conclusive that there is or isn't a Dark power to do that.

 

Perhaps the best argument in here?
He is constantly arguing that the dark-side is so much better than the light-side. Your quote: "If so powerful you are, why leave?" - Yoda, kind of decreases that notion, that along with losing to Mace, and ultimately that OBW bested Anakin - all these things argues against the dark-side being the stronger one. And, according to the Jedi, such as OBW, "ultimate power" will be achieved through immortality through the force: becoming a force ghost.

 

How ironic, that Vader's progeny had that latent ability... and Vader got the suited shaft while looking for it.

***

No way Rossa...

 

No way to what Mr. Slayer? To my general health?

Or, were you actually referring to my last post in this thread, OR was it when I argued that perhaps the Jedi knew the story of Plageus - or at least the basic outlines of the story?

But ofcourse Master, I will go home and practice my thinking skills with a saber

 

Nope, need healthy stalkers to keep my conditioning at its highest level.

There is noooo way; my very young Apprentice, that the Jedi knew anything about Plagueis. Doesn't fit the story, remember the Cerelean Jedi, K-Mundi in TPM? And what Mace said?

Of course, you should... but I'm am not so sure of your intentions.
Perhaps I will keep myself from sleeping anytime soon, lest I end up like Lord Plagueis.

 

No, his power is limited.

I remember on another forum people were talking about immortal Sith from the EU.

Sion was one.

You might want to note that he is dead now.

I am not sure what they were getting at.

 

Ah, but wasn't Bane after the Sith were supposed to be extinct?
Yoda: "Always two they are. No more. No less" - something that doesn't fit the story perhaps?
It is just something in the way Sideous said it: almost hinting at the Jedi keeping secrets from Anakin - but then again, he was just making a double-score...

Yes Master!
Soon I will possess the ability to imagine myself hurling lightning, and then you will be in serious do-do!

But, on another note, I still contain that the "ultimate power" was more a reference to the state of things. He had ultimate power in the Senate. He had THE ultimate power in Anakin standing in front of him. If he honestly thought that HE, Sideous, had ultimate power he was even more foolish than I thought - having to kill your, alleged, master in his sleep - losing to one Jedi Master, dueling to a draw with another, having your protege nearly killed...
Plageus must be a heavy sleeper

 

First, we have Lucas telling us that Plagueis did exist. And he did say that he left it open as to whether or not Anakin was created by a Sith Lord or the Force. Second, we have a book about to come out within the next year, about Plagueis.

I ignore nothing. Palpatine lost the Lightsaber duel, but was faking about being weak when he blasted Mace and failed to overpower him. He could always overpower Mace, but because Anakin had shown up, he changed tactics to get the boy to join him.

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

"Ok, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh, overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that now that its very clear that he?s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It made a lot more sense to have him stay loyal to the Jedi which meant later on in this scene with the fight with Mace, we re-did that scene and at first there wasn?t the part where the Emperor gives up, he goes - ?You got me! You got me!?. It was basically the scene without that where it gets more intense and Anakin finally breaks down and saves him, but it didn?t have the same feeling as that pause in there where you think?and it makes the Emperor a lot more slimy, it's really fun. It?s a dramatic thing to deal with."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"He didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace)."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.



Plagueis was an unknown to the Jedi. Bane's identity is still up in the air, as there isn't a story where it confirms an encounter. There is a story where a Jedi went rogue and discovered that the Sith were alive. He tried to warn the Jedi and told them about the rule of two, but they didn't believe him. Shortly thereafter, a Sith killed the rogue Jedi and made it look like they had no hand in it.

 

I pretty much agree with you, Sinister. Just 2 things though, first, when Palpatine is pointing his lightsaber at Mace, he looks defeated. It seems Palpatine is trying to extend the duel until Anakin comes. So he allows Mace to get back into it, which proves to be a mistake as Mace overpowers him. And second, in a James Luceno interview on Feb. 5, Luceno stated that the Darth Plagueis is currently on hold. He said that it was about protecting the SW franchise and that certain people wasn't sure which direction they wanted to take the character.

 

First, it might be that Lucas opted to go for a dramatic shot. There have been plenty of sword fights where a similar shot was used. Only for dramatic purposes. Not because someone was coming to turn the tide.

Second, thank you for that update. I had not heard that one. Might be prudent to see what Lucas wants, since that's a big one there.

 

But Sinister: You're quotes only say that Sideous exaggerated his weakness. I'm not contesting that, I'm simply saying that he was overpowered. Even his lightning failed. When you say that Sideous could always take Mace that is pure BS, and nowhere is that proven - by the movies or by Lucas. Lucas said he EXAGGERATED his weakness - there must be a weakness if you want to exaggerate it - then you can't have ultimate power...