Discussions Unpopular Expanded Universe Opinions

I think he never should have fallen at all. Nor should any Skysolo kid.

But he is kind of an example of this. He is mercylessly hunted down but Tahiri its like one conversation with Ben and everything is forgiven. In fact the Jedi and she herself then act rather offended at the notion of Tahiri actually having to face legal consquences for her actions.

Or Jaina in DJ, she is pretty deep into the dark side. Then one conversation with Kyp Durron and the only character development Jaina ever recieved in the EU is rolled back no problem.

And then of course there are things like KOTOR 1 where you can like convince all the students of the Sith academy in like one conversation to turn back to the light. Or like even more more extreme Yuthura Ban who conspires to take over the academy, then backstabbs you before going to pathetically begging for her life when defeated(showing that self preservation is still her number 1 priority). Sparing her more or less instantly makes her a good person again, all of her crimes forgiven... And yes I know they try to justify it with a sob story but lets be real here does going through trauma really excuse the stuff a Sith does?

 

I agee. But that isn't what I asked. I asked if you think they should have killed him rather than redeem him.

Tahiri should have to face consequences, and so should Jaina (no one seems to even remember all the horrible stuff Jaina did weirdly enough).

Also in KOTOR you can only convince 2 members of the academy to turn to the light, dustil, who the Sith murdered his friend and you need evidence to convince him of and one other who is beaten and who's life you save, he also says he will "think about [the jedi]" but isn't sure.

As to Yuthura, she can only be turned if you remind her WHY she joined the Sith, to free slaves.

I also LIKE that redeeming isn't uncommon. Ulic has a good redemption arc. Where he confronts his past mistakes and sees the error of his ways (too late for his brother). It ads to the characters journeys.

 

I would say, them knowing the Vader story and having fully accepted Mara (and Kyp) should have at least given it some honest tries. Which they clearly did not. The furthest we ever see for that is Leia and she was explicitly stalling/distracting him.

That said, putting down my rose tinted fan glasses, Jacen had at the end reached a point where coming back was pretty much impossible. Similar to Vader if he had lived, Jacen had killed millions in his war. If he had lived he would have faced a trial that could not have ended differently than with the death penalty. Maybe, in the best case he could have been spared that due to his earlier herosims, like Phillipe Petain was. But even then I don´t see the verdict being reduced to anything below life imprisonment. And that would open the can of worms of keeping one of the strongest force users of his generation succesfully imprisoned, while there are probably still followers of him seeking to break him out.

The thing is, on a personal level the Skysolos should have definietly tried to redeem him, but I feel on a galactic scale Jacen could have never really returned to what he had. So I can understand why the choice that he needs to die was made. Even if they should have angonized far more over it and been far more regretfull over it.

That for sure, though with Jaina she was on the winning side of the wars she did that stuff in. And war crimes of the winning side are usually ignored/remaind unpunished in every war.

Its still build on her begging for her life, the oppositte of what Vader and Jacen did concerning their redemptions. She makes it clear that self perservation is still her number 1 priority which is the ultimate essence of the dark side. Plus I don´t think this 'excuse' really works.

I think it might have made more sense when redemptions had increased in the post Endor stories. Basically Vader being used as an example that it is possible, and then not so much in the old republic era, as, as said before Yoda and Obi Wan both clearly think its impossible. Which just makes stuff like Ulics and Revans story a giant plot hole. (And if Tione knew it in YJK then I think Yoda and Obi Wan would have known).

But of course its the oppositte, old republic era Sith are redeemed by the dozen yet Brakiss, Jacen, Lumyia, Krayt they all die more or less on the dark side.

 

I think they should have taken him alive and put him in jail to get him to think about stuff.

Or if they are useful (operation paperclip). But no one even MENTIONS her actions, it is like she wiped their minds.

Yoda might not have cared about Ulic (since Revan had his minded destroyed by the Jedi council and a new one created, that lead to his redemption). Or he might have thought that after killing his wife and still staying dark (remember Ulic had a breakdown after killing his brother), he might be stuck in the darkness. Rather than tell luke "your dad's too evil" he said "look NO ONE ever comes back don't feel bad about it".

 

Solo Trilogy novels are better than Solo movie
Lucas would have revolutionized television if Underworld was a reality

 

And Malak is underrated!

 

The Caedus Plot was a bad Plot and that not only due to bad execution.
I think makeing Jacen Solo a villian, the character who was one of the most pacifist in Sw, who was more than anyone else a thinker not a fighter, who gave an entire species a chance to save their very existance and their souls, would have always been spitting on NJO and everything SW originally stood for. Even with someone like Stover writing all of it. It would have destroyed the Legacy of Jacen either way. Even with perfect execution I feel it would have ultimatley just been a bad/inferior retreated of Anakins story, for no reason other than removing Jacen as the defacto main character of the younger generation.

And yes I consider this an unpopular opinion because most critism about LotF that I see generally talk about the wasted potential and how the basic plot could have been great. Which I utterly disagree with.

 

Exactly! It’s like turning Shaak Ti into a Sith Lady. I always thought the two characters had many similarities.
Many say that Jacen’s fall was inevitable because in the NJO novels he was forced to use the Dark Side. I honestly think this argument is pretty stupid. It’s like saying that Anakin would inevitably fall to the Dark Side because he killed the Sand People in Episode II. It’s a meaningless argument. Using the Dark Side once doesn't inevitably make you succumb to the Dark Side itself, all Jedi at least once in their lives have used the Dark Side.

 

"Giving in to the Dark Side" by using it, is portrayed as an extremely dangerous thing - it's rare for a Jedi Master to have done it and not have "fallen all the way to becoming a Dark Jedi" but it does happen.

MedStar books: Barriss and Luminara:

"And have you ever given in to the dark side, Master?"
"Yes. In a moment of weakness and pain, I did. It allowed me to survive when I might have perished otherwise, but that one taste was enough for me to realize I could never do it again. There may come a time when you experience this, Barriss. I hope not, but if it ever happens, you must recognize and resist it."
"It will feel evil?"
"Oh, no. It will feel better than anything you have ever experienced, better than you would have thought anything could feel. It will feel empowering, fulfilling, satisfying. Worst of all, it will feel right. And therein lies the real danger."

 

Jacen does have that moment. On the ship. On ground he is very much a lightsider. I don't think he even kills anyone on the planet.

 

Both Jacens piss me off. I was reading Balance Point, where I find him pacifistic beyond the point of reason...and then fast forward to the first book of LOTF where he's gone so far the other way and is needlessly provoking and killing people.

 

But ALL the Jedi are like that in Balance Point? They don't like Kyp protecting planets. Jacen also becomes willing to fight in that book.

I don't like Luke in the Denningverse, he is just so callous, it seems only jedi lives matter and the jedi must serve him.

 

The quotations in which George Lucas claims not to consider the Expanded Universe have no value, since we cannot know whether those quotations are a faithful copy of the words originally spoken by George Lucas. All those quotes are taken from interviews, and interviews are not always reliable, because journalists often tend to magnify and exaggerate things. So, when someone says that George Lucas has never seriously considered the Expanded Universe he is simply saying a falsehood, which can’t be corroborated by anyone. Until George Lucas declares in front of a camera that he has never read the books and the comics and that for him that stuff never mattered, then for me it’s simply not true.
And even if this is true, it doesn’t matter anyway: firstly, because George Lucas is no longer in charge of Lucasfilm and therefore his personal considerations are no longer worth anything; secondly, because the fact that he was against certain things doesn't automatically make those things less beautiful. The fact that George didn’t approve of Luke getting married and having a family doesn’t automatically make the idea in itself bad. Besides, it’s also have be to take into account the fact that George changed his mind all the time, one day he was in favor of something and the next day he was against it. George has always been a very undecided person about how to run the Star Wars universe. So, even assuming that at some point he stopped considering the Expanded Universe, it doesn’t mean he always had that attitude and it doesn’t mean he would always have that attitude in the future.
Finally, even if it’s true that he never considered the Expanded Universe as part of his personal vision, it doesn’t matter anyway. Star Wars isn’t just George Lucas’ personal vision. Star Wars stopped to be Lucas' exclusive property at the moment he authorized the creation of the Expanded Universe. If he wanted to expand the Star Wars universe exclusively through his vision, then he would not have authorized the creation of the Expanded Universe in the first place, he would not authorized other authors to write stories set in his universe and he would write all the novels and comics himself, just as Tolkien did with the Lord of the Rings universe. So, the fact that a certain thing doesn't perfectly reflect the vision of George Lucas doesn't make it less beautiful and less valid, because the fact that George is the creator of the Saga doesn't mean that his vision should be the only one possible, and that doesn’t mean that everything he thinks and says is always right.

 

That in Legends Sith and Jedi are just beliefs Light Side or Dark Side are just ideas the Force is neutral like Kreia said

 

True but either way Post Endor Legends was always destined to be screwed over no matter WHO made a Ep 7,8, and 9

 

Well Lucas allowed his protege Filoni to explcitly contradict the EU in TCW, in fact he himself was appartently involved with some of the scripts of that series. And this wasn´t just based on some characters fates but entire pieces of worldbuilding, noticable amongst others on Dathomir and Mandalore. Plus he disregarded the EU´s take on the Clone Wars (in which the clones had been the enemies of the Jedi), while at the same time retaining elements like Coruscant for his PT.

So I would generally say he had an ambivalent take on it. He took from it what he wanted and ignored the rest... and caused the EU severe damage with his obsession of keeping the Big 3 alive no matter what...

Also wasn´t he the one of came up with this whole "A Canon", "B Canon" stuff? Like that movies trump everything, then TV shows, only then novels and so on?

 

Of course, I’m aware that George Lucas didn’t consider the Expanded Universe as part of his personal vision. However, with my long post I wanted to emphasize the falsehood and groundlessness of the idea that for George the Expanded Universe didn’t exist at all and didn’t matter at all. Many people argue that George and the Expanded Universe had nothing to do with each other, that George was never involved in the Expanded Universe, and some people even say he hated it! This is proverbial nonsense, which has no foundation. The fact that George didn’t care much about the stability of the EU continuity is true, no one can deny it. But that does not mean that the EU meant absolutely nothing to him.

I believe that George’s attitude towards the Expanded Universe has evolved over the years.
From 1990 until 2005, I think George had a positive view of the Expanded Universe and considered it as part of the Saga. He was concerned about the stability of the EU continuity and he wanted everything fit as well as possible. At the time of the realization of the Prequels, George saw the Expanded Universe and the films as part of a single story, so much so that he introduced many references to the Expanded Universe in the Prequel Trilogy, especially in Revenge of the Sith in which he putted many references to the Clone Wars Multimedia Project.
After the completion of the Prequel Trilogy, George gradually became disinterested and stopped worrying about the stability of the EU continuity, and in 2008 he finally demonstrated that, while admiring the Expanded Universe as a whole and the creativity of the writers, he wouldn’t have bothered to contradict it at any time. Perhaps, if George had never sold the franchise, over time the TV shows and the rest of the Expanded Universe would have been separated. Two timelines would be created exactly like now, but with the difference that the Expanded Universe would be continued and not left in oblivion like now.

Well, that’s actually writers' fault, not George’s. George had explicitly forbidden writers to explore the Prequel Era, because he himself wanted to create the basis for the Prequel Era trough his personal vision, but the writers ignored him and put references to the Clone Wars in their novels. So it’s the writers' fault. Anyway, most of these continuity errors were fixed later.

 

Well he did veto the Nogrih being the Sith species, as well as having a mad clone of Obi Wan instead of Joruus... While in the very same book apparently not saying anything about Pealleon suggesting he fought the Clone with the Republic.

I will say I actually doubt Lucas ever had a full plan. When he made the OT he had a vague idea for the PT (and yes probably at the time had the Clones as the antagonist) and an even vaguer idea for a potential ST. I think he was influenced by the EU as well. Like takeing in Coruscant amongst others. And who knows how much of his ST ideas were, by the time he sold, influenced by the EU. I mean apparently it also had a son and daughter of Han and Leia? Did he always have that idea? Or did it come from the EU?

I doubt that. I think he would have outright overwritten the legends canon. Not somewhat cleanly moved it into an alternate timeline. He would have told his stories and then said "well its A canon, everything in the novels contradicting it is erased, everything that still fits stays".

Let me tell you as someone who has experienced some of these shifts and retcons in other francises, SW Legends got of easy. (This could also count for an Unpopular opinion in and of itself)

 

Unfortunately, as I said in my initial post, the problem with Lucas is that he changed his mind all the time, so we can’t know what would happen. In 2005 he agreed with what had been told in the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, but then he decided to create TCW. George has always been a genius, but at the same time he has never been able to make a clear decision. He didn’t want to be limited by the writers, but at the same time allowed them to write, and if he wanted to recreate himself what the writers had already done, then great continuity errors and meaningless plot holes emerged.

 

Well as George said himself "Continuity is for wimps

@Anedon

Legends becoming Legends was honestly the beset case scenario to what would have happened to the EU.


Also unpopular opinion but i'm unconvinced that having two timelines honestly would make a difference for at the end of the time one timeline would get more focused then the other.

Marvel tried that with Ultimate and then well that didn't work.

 

This involves the movies as well as the EU.
Anyway
The Clone Wars as was implied by Zahn in the Thrawn Trilogy sounds way cooler than what we ended up getting in the prequels. And makes much more sense, especially the timeline. Call it cliché all you want but you name a war after the enemy. Let’s look at a real world example. In the west we call it the Vietnam War, whereas in Vietnam, that war is known as the American War.
So having Republic vs Clones or having both sides using clones and having the Clone Wars taking place earlier as TTT implies, makes more sense and would’ve been much better.

 

It at least would have spared us from the goofy battle droids that make even Storm Troopers look half way decent soldiers...

 

I wish Bantam hired James Luceno to start the Expanded Universe instead of Timothy Zahn.

 

I am surprised that the EU lasted long and that George would have allowed post ROTJ stories i think we are lucky that the EU existed also for me the EU was canon during the PT

 

Well if Del Rey didn't lose the licence in the late 80s then James Luceno would have started the Expanded Universe. Which I think would have been better, as Luceno is a more political/force user writer than Zahn (who focused more the military stuff, for obvious reasons), which could have prepped people a bit more for the PT (maybe).