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Saga Unpopular Star Wars opinions!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Feelicks, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I think it’s both. Yes, Nute Gunray says he won’t join the Separatists until Padme is dead, but she was also the outspoken opponent to a standard army and it is only in her absence that it gets approved.

    When Palpatine sends her away to Naboo, she even makes a remark about how she’s frustrated that she won’t be there when the vote to raise an army is brought before the Senate.

    I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I do believe that Palpatine also wanted her dead or at least out of the way. Palpatine and Mas Amedda even manipulate Jar Jar into believing that if she were there that she’d be brave enough to stand before the Senate and propose granting Palpatine emergency powers, when that’s precisely the opposite of what she would have wanted. She, like Bail, wanted to continue to debate and seek a diplomatic solution.


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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    His overall goal was achieved; he became Chancellor and he's begun sowing the seeds for the war.

    He doesn't know about Dexter, but he knows the Jedi are resourceful enough to have others that they can rely on.

    Right. He did have a reason though, one was to further set up the war and two, to confirm their return.

    Which is why it works. Not everyone is aware of what the track really is, so they are unaware of the larger implications.

    It shows how easily the whole thing can come crashing down. It's one of those inevitable things. We're starting a story that's going to span decades.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2022
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  3. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    In ANH, nothing is a forgone conclusion. The Battle of Yavin is to decide the fate of the Rebellion against the tool through which the Empire will exert absolute control.

    In ESB, Vader capturing the Falcon is not inevitable. Luke abandoning his training is not inevitable. And even Yoda (in ROTJ) says that Vader telling Luke of their family connection was unexpected.

    When Boba Fett escapes with Han, there is a sense of defeat. That they were just barely too late. That they could have rescued him, but now he’s gone. The bad guys “win” in that one of the heroes is suffering emotional trauma after losing his hand, and another was taken away.

    In ROTJ, there is ultimately the battle for the fate of the Galaxy. The outcome, despite Palpatine’s confidence, is not certain.

    TFA is basically a retro film, mirroring beats of the OT very closely. Again pitting the fate of the Resistance against a super weapon that would give the First Order absolute control.

    In TLJ, absolutely nothing is inevitable, with Snoke being overthrown, Rey and Kylo rejecting each others’ hands, and Luke choosing to be the inspiring figure the Galaxy needed.

    Then ROS is very ROTJish again.

    But the prequels are pretty much on rails that the Republic is already a failed state. And nobody can stop Palpatine no matter how many times his goals overtly fail. Palpatine is playing a game of Chess against an opponent that doesn’t even know there’s a game in progress.

    One big failing, IMO is that if you look at the historical figures such as Hitler or Napoleon or Caesar, it inevitably became very apparent as to what they were trying to do and they always had opposition and partisan conflict and the potential to be undone.

    We get a few grumblings here and there from people like Obi-Wan about Palpatine, but at the end of the day nobody really challenged him. It’s a pretty shallow, uninteresting rise to power by comparison. There’s no opposition party or political firebrand in the Senate accusing Palpatine of seeking a crown. Palpatine doesn’t have to suppress critics or face assassination attempts. The closest thing we get is the Delegation of 2,000, who were easily dismissed and whose scenes were cut. The Senate, outside of Delegation members, is just treated as this increasingly corrupt monolith that supports Palpatine. The villain is unchallenged.


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    Last edited: Sep 14, 2022
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  4. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 4, 1998
    From the TV Tropes page on Xanatos Gambit:


     
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  5. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Going back to the assassination attempt on Padme:

    Something that strikes me as odd about it is that Padme immediately suspects Dooku. Padme ends up being correct, but given the information available at the time, that’s quite the leap.

    The CIS is trying to break away and Padme is a prominent politician that is against using military force. Why would Dooku want her dead?

    It’s not known that he’s a Sith, or that there’s a droid army on Geonosis, or that he’s affiliated with Nute Gunray. So why would a secessionist aim to kill someone whose political aims are advantageous to them?

    If China prepared to invade Taiwan and an anti-war movement started in the US that opposed the US declaring on China, and then there was an assassination attempt on a prominent anti-war senator, I’d be more tempted to suspect a fellow Anerican that wants war as opposed to a Xi ordering it. Why would that be advantageous?


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  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Instinct. She doesn't claim to have evidence. In the script, the characters pose the same questions:

    Perhaps the purpose was to plant a seed of doubt in the audience in regards to Dooku.
     
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  7. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 14, 2018
    Because the audience needs to know who Count Dooku is, so Padme decides to inform them by bringing him up as a suspect in an incredibly awkward and unintuitive way. ;)
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, but we as the audience know they'll succeed against the Empire, since the film was built on the classic good triumphs over evil trope. To further emphasize this, Lucas added "A New Hope" as the title of that episode, later on.

    The Falcon being captured was obvious the two times it failed to go into hyperspace, and then seeing Slave I follow it. The Vader connection was unexpected, yes. But his turn was becoming more obvious once Luke arrives at Endor.

    It was certain then, because the film was billed as the conclusion of a trilogy.
     
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  9. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I’m talking about in universe. The Empire had an opportunity to destroy the Rebels at Yavin IV and very nearly did, with Luke saving the day at the last possible moment.

    I’m saying the characters are going into battles and making decisions where the stakes are high and the outcomes matter in universe, even if the outcome is predictable as a viewer.

    I mean, I think it’s obvious as a viewer that Vader wasn’t going to destroy Luke in ANH.

    I felt the films would have benefitted by showing how the good guys could have won. But really the Jedi spend most of TPM “winning,” but Palpatine ends up getting what he wanted anyway.

    I feel like a tragedy is better when you see how it could have been avoided. A character goes left when they should have gone right, and it leads to ruin.

    We get that moment when Anakin chooses to turn on Mace, but that’s about it. There’s no tension between Padme and Palpatine, even though he’s slowly becoming a dictator. The Jedi don’t have any qualms about using an army of artificially aged child soldiers cloned from the guy that was hired by Dooku to kill Padme whom was against such an army. There’s no credible opposition party.


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  10. Ssj5 count Dooku

    Ssj5 count Dooku Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 13, 2022
    It seems to me she thinks the cis is not trustworthy and probably wants war. She probably wanted to do talks and they turned her down making her suspicious. There’s so many ways this can go to make her think this and that’s part of the immersion for me is that it’s so believable.
     
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  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi are opposed to war forvits sake, but there is no reason to oppose using a clone army, since it isn't portrayed as illegal or immoral. And it would be stupid to not use a ready made army, since the Republic doesn't have one to begin with.
     
  12. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Let’s say Padme believes that Dooku does want war. Why would Dooku want the Republic to have an army?

    The opening crawl establishes that there are a bunch of systems interested in leaving the Republic and Dooku is their leader. It also establishes that the Jedi Order is overwhelmed and unable to deal with the situation on their own (which is to Dooku’s advantage), and there’s a proposal to create a Grand Army to help the Jedi maintain order.

    Padme was on her way to vote on the issue when she was attacked.

    And from a deleted scene we find out that she’s the leader of the opposition to the security measure, and that there’s someone out there that wants to ensure that it passes.

    And that person is… Dooku? Not war mongering Senators? It’s the guy that actually benefits from the security measure stalling in the Senate?

    I am baffled how George could establish Anakin as being a child slave of 9 years of age, sold from owner to owner, with a chip in his head forcing him into compliance.

    Then he establishes in the next film that there are child soldiers of 10 years of age, genetically accelerated, sold to the Republic, with chips in their heads to ensure compliance.

    But he failed to see the comparison and the later is not immoral, and the Republic is stupid to not make use of them?

    You’re dealing with genetically modified human beings, engineered for compliance, brainwashed to idolize and serve a government they’ve never lived under, and sold to aforementioned government with no agency of their own in the matter. And TCW went further to establish that they are individuals, and make them fun characters that bond with the Jedi, which just makes it even worse IMO as it shows they have the capacity to have lives outside of a war they were forced into, but they are never given the freedom to choose that.



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    Last edited: Sep 15, 2022
  13. Ssj5 count Dooku

    Ssj5 count Dooku Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 13, 2022
    Dooku wants what his master wants him to do,which is get the clone army made and then approved by the senate. They WANT the war.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    She's not sure why, just that he is. Then she hears Obi-Wan's report which presents a motivation.

    He did see the irony, especially after the biochip was introduced in season six. He's making a point in showing how corrupt the whole thing was. That’s why Barriss called out the Jedi in season five. She was aware of how fall the Jedi had fallen in their quest to save a dying government.

    Hence the tragedy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2022
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  15. Lowly Gungan

    Lowly Gungan Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 11, 2022
    I personally see reason in making there be wins and losses on both sides, so the viewer still hopes the main characters will win, even though they lose at the end.
     
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  16. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

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    May 27, 1999
    People shouldn't have gotten worked up over the ST and it's perceived disrespect of the original characters and erasing of their success. That's because fans already had a preview of such a scenario. The sequel books starting with "Vector Prime" seemed mainly concerned with making the heroes look overwhelmed and uncertain, and bringing them as much pain as possible. Plus, the ST even repeated some story points from those books (like a Solo kid foolishly turning evil and the New Republic basically falling apart). It's not like such an idea was without precedent.
    I don't know how unpopular this view is, but I don't recall it being mentioned very much.
     
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  17. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    Putting characters through pain and uncertainty is not the same as erasing their success.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2022
  18. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

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    May 27, 1999
    By the time Disney pulled the plug, the New Republic had been devastated, Leia had been forced out of leadership, Luke's Jedi were in disarray, and the Republic was being led by an unrepentant Imperial admiral responsible for a lot of trouble.
    It was, in hindsight, practically a test bed for the ST state of things.
     
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  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I ignored the post-NJO EU as well as Dark Empire and thought the ST repeated points from the worst of Legends, not the best.

    Luke’s Crait speech and Luke’s Unifying Force speech were equally good, but the NJO gave the OT characters respect and an opportunity to mentor the new characters, which was at least somewhat lacking in the ST.
     
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  20. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    And?... Having some broad similarities doesn't mean they're the same, or that it's OK for the ST to do something similar with worse execution. And execution matters a whooooole lot.

    Also IIRC, the books were still ongoing, not the definitive end of the Skywalker Saga like the ST made it. And not all fans cared for the EU, cared for those repeated plots, or wanted them in the ST.

    And if you think the Disney approach was done in respect to the EU, all I can say is I disagree. I think the Disney approach was about banking on nostalgia while making new young OCs to replace the OT 3, and to do that they broke and killed off the old OT 3.
     
  21. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

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    May 27, 1999
    I'm not saying that that the later books directly inspired the ST. I'm saying that they used the same idea, that in order for the new story to develop they had to put the OT heroes through the absolute wringer and crush whatever they accomplished. I don't look at it as whether or not one was better made than the other. I just figure they both took the story where a number of fans didn't want it to go, but the fans seemed to have forgotten the earlier version in their response to the latter. Perhaps, an element of, "Oh, no. Not again," should've been there in the reaction. If there was, I missed it.
    Putting the heroes through tough times is an expected development for me. Figuratively, or literally, beating the living stuffings out of them and their accomplishments is not, in my opinion.
     
  22. TK-2814

    TK-2814 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 20, 2019
    I'm aware that it's non canon but I hate the idea of The Ninth Jedi as a potential future because I think it's incredibly dumb that centuries past IX, the Jedi are still in a state of near extinction.

    Also The Elder is my favorite Visions short.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2022
  23. Lowly Gungan

    Lowly Gungan Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 11, 2022
    My main complained about the Sequel Trilogy was actually that I felt Luke seemed out of character to me. I understand that more suffering is expected in the Sequel Trilogy, but it felt too much like an odd repeat and they skipped the story of the New Republic falling again.
    To be honest, I think they were afraid to put any politics due to the Prequel trilogy's reliance on it, which made it confusing in the minds of many viewers.
    Also, the parallel between the First Order and the Empire, Snoke and Palpatine, and Kylo Ren and Darth Vader, among other things seemed to me rather on the nose, especially in the first movie.
     
  24. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 27, 2016
    For some reason Mace Windu doesnt trust Anakin during Episode 3
    this is Weird because if we count TCW Anakin there helped the Republic a lot i dont think TCW fits very well with the Episode 3 tone i know that Star Wars is full of Retcons but i feel that the Multimedia Project fits better with Episode 3 because Anakin there is more arrogant and less heroic than his TCW counterpart this is my unpopular opinion
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Mace's distrust of Anakin has nothing to do with the fact that he helped the Republic and did his job during the war. There's no inconsistency with Episode III.
     
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