Saga Unpopular Star Wars opinions!

I remember that. My neighbor got me the SW novel for my birthday.

 

Maul was Palpatine Sith apprentice and the way Grievous is portrayed in TCW Maul was a bigger threat for the Jedi than Grievous i know that Star Wars is not perfect and is full of Retcons and TCW wanted to Fix that in the last season but still doesnt change that its still Weird that Ahsoka and Maul were never mentioned although it is also understandable TCW came out later

 

I kind of agree with @Lord Sith Harloxzz about Ahsoka.

Had Ahsoka been a thing in say AOTC but not ROTS, do those who are saying "oh he had no reason to mention her in ROTS" really believe she would not be mentioned at all in the following movie? come on now, don't be disingenuous

 

I mean, George Lucas was heavily involved in its production, so I think it is hard to call it a fan fiction. That said, I am sure a lot of Clone Wars fans would get mad at me for saying this, but it might have benefitted Anakin's arc better if he had more or less taken Ahsoka's role as the immature learner who must grow to be more mature (as he is in Revenge of the Sith) and Obi-wan more or less taking the role of Anakin, it might have been better. Ahsoka could have come in elsewhere somehow. I don't know… The Clone Wars can be enjoyable, but I do sometimes find it hard to link the character of Anakin between it and the movies.

 

Grievous was the chief commander of the Separatist forces. With Dooku already dead, capturing him meant ending the galactic war, which was explicitly stated in the movie. Capturing him meant that Palpatine had to give up his emergency powers, and that the Jedi had to make a move. The Jedi were far more concerned with these far more pressing matters at hand, immediate matters of Galactic importance, than they were with a renegade former Sith sitting on the Outer Rim planet, that was not even affiliated with the Republic, with a bunch of Mandalorian terrorists. For that very reason, a free agent like Ahsoka was sent to deal with him. That was kind of the point: the Jedi were far too distracted fighting a manufactured war, spreading them thin, allowing lawlessness to flourish, and villains like Maul seizing the opportunity amidst the chaos. Could Maul be useful in Jedi's efforts to uncover the identity of Sidious, considering Maul was his apprentice? You bet. This is why Ahsoka was sent to capture him in the first place. But once the attack on Coruscant happened, once Grievous' location was revealed - the events simply moved too quickly and escalated drastically for them to be concerned with Maul.

I can see how it can be weird to some, simply because you are aware that some stuff came later. But from the narrative point of view, there's nothing weird about it. The movie is focused very narrowly in a two hour time frame on very specific things, in this case Anakin's obsession with Padme's death being the one and only thing occupying his mind. There is no place narratively to mention Ahsoka or Maul. There is no immediate relevance to the main focus of the movie - Anakin Skywalker wanting to save his dying wife, and the vast majority of the movie being concerned with it. It's a story that's happening parallel to Revenge of the Sith. But it doesn't mean they don't exist in the world of the movie, in the narrative of Star Wars. It may interconnect, and if it does, it happens off-screen. Which was done rather clever and seamless in the final season.

Characters live beyond the scenes you see in a movie. It's not like they cease to exist the moment they aren't in the frame. The movie just shows you what you need to see for a very specific purpose of a very specific narrative. Consider the deleted Mon Mothma scene, for example. It was filmed and all, but it was cut. She was nowhere in Revenge of the Sith. Not even mentioned. Does that mean Mon Mothma doesn't exist? No, it was just not relevant to Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, which was centered around him preventing Padme from dying. Or take Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi's actual master and instructor, one of the best Jedi to ever live, who had an immense impact on Obi-Wan, the first Jedi to discover the technique of Force Ghosting, that Obi-Wan used extensively in the OT. He was never mentioned in the OT. He was simply not relevant to the story of Luke Skywalker. Does that mean he never existed? Yeah, he didn't exist when the OT was made. However, he existed in the narrative of Star Wars constructed by George Lucas, expanded by the PT. But it's up to the individual, I guess, whether one can look beyond the meta knowledge and enjoy the narrative, or if it breaks one's immersion. You could call it a retcon, in that it was retroactively added, but I feel like the word itself carries a lot of negative subtext, and lots of people use it as a nitpick, instead of letting go of the meta knowledge and trying to understand the intent of the author. And even then, really, I feel like retcon is when something is explicitly contradicted, when something is explicitly stated, and then it gets explicitly changed. Say, Luke and Leia being siblings. It's not like it was stated anywhere in the OT that Luke doesn't have sister. Is it weird that Leia turns out to be his sister? Yeah, especially if you know that it was never planned and they came up with it specifically for Return of the Jedi. But it's not a retcon per se. It's more of... expansion and additional context that wasn't known before. It can be said for all of the PT and TCW. That's how I see it, it works for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it would be just retreading Attack of the Clones, which had already done it. The dynamic between Anakin and Obi-Wan is quite static, especially when you know that Anakin had been a Padawan for ten years already. Lucas created Ahsoka, because he wanted to force Anakin into this situation and mature him this way, he wanted to make him behave, to feel responsibility, and he wanted to make the Jedi Council proactive in their attempts at recognizing Anakin's problem and fixing it, namely the problem of attachment. You often see people outright hating the Jedi and blaming them for Anakin's fall, as if they did not give him any substantial help beyond Yoda's one advice in Revenge of the Sith. But giving him a Padawan strikes deep into the very core of his issues. It also creates additional context behind Anakin's path to the rank of Jedi Master, his frustration with the Council, which goes beyond him just being arrogant. It strengthens the bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan, too, by increasing Anakin's understanding of his own faults as a Padawan, and looking back at it in retrospective. Anakin and Obi-Wan now share common experience and can relate on this level, making them equals. It's not an obvious approach, but there is far more going on then people usually give it credit for. I'd say Anakin's arc is pretty good. Lucas knew what he was doing.

 

But they weren't mentioned in the final film. It's why Zahn thought that he could make the Sith an alien race enslaved by Vader, which was changed into the Noghri.

Please. This is no different from other franchises that have done similar things. You watch DS9, but don't see the Enterprise-E during the Dominion War. Yet, "Insurrection" makes multiple references to the war and the conflict over the Ba'ku homeworld is tied to it. You don't have to name drop characters and reference story arcs. That's anal retentive fanboyism.

 

Even if Maul was not longer a Sith Lord he was a rising Crime Lord he would become a threat even if the Jedi defeated the Separatists is a Retcon that Maul is still alive during Episode 3 but like i said before Star Wars is not perfect Retcons exist even Disney still Retcons the Star Wars movies like in the Kenobi Show with Obi Wan and Vader dueling before Episode 4 and after Episode 3 im sure if TCW would have come out earlier Maul and Ahsoka would have appeared during Episode 3

 

Was it? Anakin struck me as more mature in Revenge of the Sith than Attack of the Clones, to me, and his relationship with Obi-wan seemed closer. Maybe, although, as others have said, it still seemed to me a mildly awkward retcon for Ahsoka to exist. More importantly, Anakin just felt different. I think it would have worked better if at very least they had stayed truer to Christensen's voice and mannerisms.

 

I wish Stormtroopers were all Jango Clones i think it would have been more epic to see the Rebel Alliance defeat the same army that destroyed the Jedi Order but i understand why they changed them to regular humans it would have been hilarious to see Jango Clones being defeated by Ewoks.

 

I don't think Ahsoka was necessary in any way to mature Anakin between films. He already had reasons to mature: he was older, he'd been fighting in a war, he'd experienced loss, he was married, etc. He already had characters he'd formed attachments to and he already had beef with the Council. There was no need to add another character and another plot point to the pile.

Ahsoka is very much a retcon, IMO, and a bad one. And I don't really care if Lucas or Filoni or whoever were responsible for it.

 

Of course she's a retcon. But that doesn't diminish her role.

 

I think it does, for the reasons I already mentioned. Because her role and addition to Anakin's story isn't believable and is pointless. She's just excessive. A new character who's there to be new and stick out like a sore thumb.

And plus I just dislike the character.

 

I think Ahsoka should have been Plo Koon Padawan and she being just a friend of Obi Wan and Anakin or if she is Anakin Padawan make her died very early during the Clone Wars to impact Anakin character more

 

Ahsoka should be added to ROTS.

 

Ahsoka dying might have been interesting—provided they had similar development for the character first and it was made clear that it effected Anakin's character. I mostly wish they had made Anakin more obviously the same character—a thing which I think could have easily been done if they had, for example, made Anakin become angry at the Jedi Order after Ahsoka either leaves (as in the original) or dies and had Padmé involved in this hypothetical arc in order to establish, as we see in Revenge of the Sith, that she is the only person with whom Anakin is emotionally open.

Alternatively, it might have been interesting if she had ended up being Obi-wan's Padawan, if that could be done. It might have given them more of a sibling relationship, but it could still be good, if executed well.

To be honest, I think this is less of a rocky retcon than Darth Maul surviving being chopped in half.

 

Perhaps. I mean, I think it would have worked if Ahsoka leaving the order had sparked Anakin's anger and fear of loss once again. In that case, I think it would contribute more to his arc a fair deal without it feeling too repetitive as another woman close to Anakin who dies. But they did not really focus on Anakin's personal reaction much, contributing to my main problem with Anakin in the series—he feels too heroic.

As for Darth Maul, I think that sort of gave license to any Dark Side user who is angry enough to survive anything, as you can see from the Obi-wan Kenobi show (which I also enjoyed, but that one part annoyed me). At this point, I wonder if Palpatine surviving in The Rise of Skywalker should still be a plot hole.

 

Why isn't it believable? If it's believable that he became a Knight, then it is believable that he'd have a Padawan. And there's plenty of room to add to a character's development.

TCW seemed to indicate that had Lucas not sold to Disney, the finale would have shown her back in the Temple and we would've seen the Temple raid, with her death occurring there.

 

Not true actually, at the time of the Disney sale all that was known about Ahsoka's fate in the final planned arc of TCW was that she would've escaped Mandalore with Rex on wolfback (this was scrapped partly due to the use of the Loth Wolves in Rebels).

Ahsoka was intended to return the Jedi Temple, in a different, earlier arc, working as a freelancer to investigate an assassination attempt on Yoda. This idea was basically retconned out of possibility of existence by the completed finale, in which Ahsoka's first meeting with Anakin and Obi-Wan is pushed later in the timeline than as original sketched out.

I don't think there was ever any concept art or revealed script plans to show the Temple Raid in any form in TCW.

 

Probably not an unpopular opinion, but Twilight of the Apprentice made Ahsoka’s inclusion in the Saga, worth it. Top 5 moment in the Saga easily.

 

I'd understood that, by the time of the OT, the stormtroopers were non-clone recruits mixed with inferior clones, due to either tampering with Jango's genetic samples or using samples from other, less capable donors. I know material released pre-TESB said they were all clones, source undetermined. I guess maybe I missed another retcon.

 

Maybe. If Ahsoka had died, I think it would have been better earlier on, so that Anakin could adjust to it, leading to the events of Episode 3.

But consider this storyline, maybe as the premiere of season 6: Mace Windu has been captured by the fearsome [fill in the blank—either Separatists or an independent party such as the Hutts or Hondo). Jedi knight Anakin Skywalker and Senator Padmé Amidala are sent to negotiate his return. Here we see Anakin initially hesitant to help Mace Windu because of what he did to Ahsoka. But, being a Jedi, he caves in, but he complains about it, suggesting that he no longer trusts the Jedi Order, especially Mace Windu, and Padmé has to help him through it. Mace Windu is rescued eventually, but he himself senses the turmoil within Anakin. Toward the end of the story, Padmé encourages Anakin, saying that there was nothing he could do, but Anakin vows to become more powerful and protect those he loves, some day becoming a Jedi Master and setting things right, setting up his relationship with the Jedi Council in Episode 3. Mace Windu, meanwhile, speaks to Yoda of his concerns about Anakin since Ahsoka left the Jedi order, adding that he is beginning to doubt if Anakin can be trusted, setting up his own view on Anakin in Revenge of the Sith.

From there on, Anakin becomes hardened and as much as we see of him, he appears to lack compassion. We might leave out his role in the story arc about Fives and make him seem less caring and more violent whenever we see him again. That might be better use of Ahsoka effecting Anakin's arc in Revenge of the Sith.

 

It did focus plenty on Anakin's personal reaction. The entire Wrong Jedi arc was about that. Anakin feels heroic, because he is a hero. He was described and clearly established as a hero in Revenge of the Sith. Everyone, except Mace Windu, was of high opinion of him. And even Mace was suspicious of him mostly because of his relationship with the Chancellor, who the Jedi were looking into. Mace's distrust of him had nothing to do with his heroic qualities. Many people seem to fail to understand, that the movies did not really have any opportunity for him to act heroic, because the Clone War, an event where he could showcase his heroic qualities and leadership, was skipped over entirely. The movies focused exclusively on his fall and traumatic events: death of his mother, premonitions of his wife's death, fall to the Dark Side because of that. This is it. Even though in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin still tried his best to be a good Jedi. He has his flaws, that ultimately do him in, and he acted plenty of times on his flaws in the series. But for some reason some people want to extrapolate his flaws onto his entire character.

Yeah, it should still be a plot hole. Because Death Star II literally evaporated, and the Sith, according to George Lucas, cannot transfer souls or have an out of body experience of any kind. Their body is the only thing they have, and once they die — this is it. Palpatine's body evaporated with the Death Star II. Naboo did not evaporate. Maul was cut in half, but his body survived and he kept himself alive with pure Dark Side, hatred, anger, that made him lose his sanity and become a barely conscious animal. He is also a Sith Lord, who had been trained in the arts of the Dark Side by Sidious since his childhood. Which makes Obi-Wan Kenobi case utterly nonsensical and trivializes how Maul and Anakin survived. Which is why you trivialized it in your post. It speaks more about people at Lucasfilm not putting sufficient thought into this stuff, and trivializing it themselves because of that. Speaking of which, Anakin survived worse than just being cut in half. He got all of his limbs chopped off and burned to a crisp near a lava river. But again, pure anger and hatred, which fuel the Dark Side, and him being the Chosen One helped. The Sith can do that with proper training, will or sheer power. Their entire thing is that they morbidly can't let go, their physical life is the only thing they have, and once it's over — this is it.

Because that user hates the character, duh. If someone is set on hating anything, you can rarely convince them otherwise, no matter how many arguments there are. So whatever.
Indeed, Jedi Knights get Padawans. To become a Jedi Master, one must train a Padawan. One of the Jedi's objectives is to pass on what they have learned, which means training the next generation. Obi-Wan mentioned in A New Hope that he was a Jedi Knight, the same as Anakin, and Obi-Wan had a pupil. There is no reason to assume Anakin never had a pupil of his own at any point in time he was a Jedi Knight. He qualifies. It's not even a retcon in a way that user implies, because it wasn't stated anywhere that Anakin didn't have a Padawan and couldn't have one in principle.

 

Fair enough. I have not seen it in a while. It still might have helped if we saw more of the effect in Season 6—as I said, such as him being less compassionate. Yes, I am sure Anakin had his brighter days, but from the perspective of the viewer, it can be easy to forget that he is still the sort of person who would slaughter an entire camp of Tuskan raiders. It did not help for me that his voice and mannerisms seemed so different from Christensen's. At least that was my impression from watching it. To be clear, I still did enjoy the show. It just could, in my mind, have treated Anakin Skywalker slightly better with a few changes to his arc.

Fair enough. I do wish they had gone more into Darth Maul's survival in The Clone Wars, however, since it was confusing when I first watched it. Also, Darth Maul had an awesome death in The Phantom Menace, in my opinion. That said, I understand how a lot of people like how he was developed in The Clone Wars.
Anakin barely surviving being burnt to a crisp seemed more believable to me personally, especially since he was given a life-support suit that he had to wear to continue surviving. But yes, I agree—Obi-wan Kenobi made it worse and it felt like they were just doing it so that the Grand Inquisitor could still be alive for Rebels.

 

Because I don't believe the Council that distrusted him and wouldn't even give him the title of Master would give him an impressionable and reckless young person to be responsible for.

And because there's no sign or mention of him ever having a Padawan, and because, again, there was no need to add to Anakin's development about attachment and loss outside the films.

And I disagree that Maul is a worse retcon than Ahsoka. Maul being alive was a weird plot, but it was pretty self-contained in TCW and didn't really cause any inconsistency with characters. And he ended up dying by Obi-Wan again anyway.