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Saga Unpopular Star Wars opinions!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Feelicks, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    To me what Luke does to the guards is somewhat similar to Spock's "Vulcan nerve pinch". Now I'm not a Trekkie, nor have I watched every single episode. But I can say I have watched enough to know Spock never uses it for revenge, punishment or out of sadism, only when he himself, his ship or crew are in danger. The "victims" are temporarily unconscious, that's it, as with a phaser's or blaster's stun setting, no permanent damage done whatsoever. Same with Luke. The guards weren't even unconscious, the Force choke was just enough to make them back off so Luke could get through. I don't see any connection to the "dark side" here. Besides, Jabba had captured two of his best friends (if you include Chewbacca) and enslaved his sister. So IMO his actions are 100% justified.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012


    The guy who staggered back to the wall and then slumped, looked unconscious to me.


    To be fair, plenty of Legends authors went with the "it's mind-manipulation, befuddling, and so on, that Luke's doing, not telekinesis, there"


    Heir to the Empire

    "Looks like we're the attack front, then," Luke said. A stray memory flicked through his mind: walking into Jabba's palace on Tatooine five years ago, using the Force to befuddle the Gamorrean guards. "Let's try this," he told Han. "I'll run ahead of you, try to confuse or slow down their reflexes as much as I can. You follow right behind me and take them out."
    ...
    The first group was coming in fast. Half closing his eyes, flying entirely on reflex, Luke reached out with the Force.
    It was a strange sensation. Strange, and more than a little unpleasant. To touch another mind with the intent of communication was one thing; to touch that same mind with the intent of deliberately distorting its perception was something else entirely.
    He'd had a similar feeling at Jabba's, with those guards, but had put it down then to nervousness about his mission to rescue Han. Now, he realized that there was more to it than that. Perhaps this sort of action-even done purely in self-defense - was dangerously close to the edge of the dark areas where Jedi were forbidden to go.
    He wondered why neither Yoda nor Ben had ever told him about this. Wondered what else there was about being a Jedi that he was going to have to discover on his own.

    Jedi Search

    As he descended the long ramp, Luke felt all eyes turn toward him. A hush fell over the assembly. Luke Skywalker, the lone remaining Jedi Master, almost never took part in governmental proceedings.
    "I have an important matter to address," he said. For a moment he was reminded of when he had walked alone into the dank corridors of Jabba the Hutt's palace - but this time there were no pig-like Gamorrean guards that he could manipulate with a twist of his fingers and a touch of the Force.
    Mon Mothma gave him a soft, mysterious smile and gestured for him to take a central position. "The words of a Jedi Knight are always welcome to the New Republic," she said.

    ROTJ junior novelization

    When the man was halfway through the entrance hall, the two Gamorreans stepped out of the shadows and raised their axes to block his path. They’d expected him to surrender or run away, and were surprised when he stopped, raised a hand, and gestured at them. Both guards were instantly compelled to lower their weapons and fell back to their stations.
    Luke Skywalker proceeded into the palace.



    And even the occasional "newcanon" author:


    ROTJ: Beware The Power of the Dark Side

    The way in turns out to be easy enough. An electronic eyeball barely has time to pop out before Luke has said, “You will open the door.”
    Yes, this is a Jedi mind trick and it works easily. Inside, the simpleminded guard who operates the door unthinkingly obeys.
    The sudden grumbling and squawking of the opening door awakens the Gamorreans on guard just inside, but Luke doesn’t even need to speak to them. A simple wave of his hand and they, too, think letting Luke in is a great idea.
    Ah, and now Bib Fortuna scuttles out of the throne room to block Luke’s path.
    “Yo macka chipowan, Skywalker!”
    Here is a better test of Luke’s ability. Fortuna is not as simpleminded as the rest.
    “I must speak with Jabba,” Luke says calmly.
    “Es tusi,” Bib replies, shaking his head. “Jabba no tusen di hunka bi. No barga.”
    “You will take me to Jabba now,” commands Luke and with a small wave of his hand uses the Force to impress that command on Fortuna’s mind.
    “Utaka Jabba nah,” repeats Bib hesitantly.
    Luke finds that fooling Fortuna takes considerably more concentration than fooling the guards. But he quickly perceives Fortuna’s weaknesses and changes his tone.
    “You serve your master well,” says Luke. “And you will be rewarded.”
    This is what Fortuna wants to believe. And, with the aid of the Force, he does believe it. He turns and leads Luke toward the throne room, muttering to himself about his anticipated reward.
     
  3. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    The script is rather unclear how Luke is using the Force. What’s more important, is there a non EU source after the film came out (from one of the artists or George) which says what Luke is doing?
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    There's the Illustrated Storybook from 1983 (one of the sources that gives Chewie's 200 year old age, which is not in the movies but everyone accepts it).

    There:


    Luke Skywalker entered Jabba's palace, dressed in the robes of a Jedi Knight. The guards could not stop him, even though they tried. Luke merely lifted his hand and the guards began to choke. As he passed he lowered his hand and they began to breathe again.
     
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  5. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    I believe that the author is describing the scene from vision. I don’t think the source is directly from the production, but the author got information and approval directly from lucasfilm at the time of making the movie. So i will take that as a more accurate answer than an EU novel written years after the fact.

    I certainly think it looks like the guards are being choked, and combined with the obvious symbolism between Luke and Vader, I think that’s the best answer
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Personal gain refers to something that is for one's personal benefit. Qui-Gon uses the mind trick for the benefit of others and not himself. If he did it because his own ship needed it, and he wasn't in a rush, then that would be wrong.

    Correct. Vulcans use it in place of a phaser set on stun. This was to avoid violence in the same way human, Klingon and Bajorian officers did. Spock himself only used it on the punk bus passenger when it wasn't necessary.
     
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  7. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fantastically Fiendish Fanfic Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Jun 19, 2019
    I'm kind of with @Dandelo when it comes to Qui-Gon's attempted Watto mind trick. (I say attempted because it failed.)

    Morally, Qui-Gon should've tried to find a bank and exchange his Republic credits for the local currency. Instead of trying to use the Jedi mind trick. Also, he wouldn't have needed to gamble the Queen's starship on the outcome of a podrace in that case either. Thus, sparing us the long podrace.

    Qui-Gon really only needed to find a bank (probably at least one by the spaceport) and it would've been easy to change his Republic credits for the local currency.
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    You think that there is a bank on Tattooine? It strikes me as a place where you won't find a branch of the Intergalactic Banking Clan. You go there with currency that is common, or you go in without anything. Shmi would have told him there was one in town.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    At the time Qui-Gon attempted to mind-trick Watto, he'd not yet met Shmi.

    The criticism is that he just jumped straight to "mind trick Watto" without even attempting to find out if there was another way first - just taking Watto's word for it that "Republic credits are no good out here".

    Very much a "quick and easy path" solution to the problem.

    At the end of the TPM novel, Yoda says Qui-Gon would have been so much more, had he not "run so fast" - and warns Obi-Wan to proceed more slowly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No, the complaint is someone being able to manipulate minds at all.
     
  11. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fantastically Fiendish Fanfic Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Jun 19, 2019
    I think somewhere on the planet of Tatooine there would be a bank, yes. Especially by the spaceports. It is not like Tatooine is completely isolated from the rest of the galaxy.

    Republic credits would likely be the most valuable currency in the galaxy since the Republic seems to be the biggest political entity in the galaxy. So I would imagine their currency could fairly easily be exchanged at the bank.

    At the very least it is worth Qui-Gon exploring that option rather than gambling on a pod race and taking Watto's word about everything (like Republic credits are worthless on Tatooine and nobody else has the parts Qui-Gon needs to repair his ship).
     
  12. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    As far as the movie is concerned, Watto’s exposition is the truth. Maybe Qui-Gon explored his options off screen
     
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  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Except Shmi confirmed that there is no one friendly to Republic visitors. She would know. Tattooine isn't isolated from the galaxy, but the Hutts have their own system and probably no currency exchange. If there is a bank, it's probably Hutt controlled and would not be open to currency exchange. There's a reason why Watto said that he needed something more real. The Hutts have no love for Republic credits.
     
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  14. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fantastically Fiendish Fanfic Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Eh, Watto has every reason to lie to Qui-Gon about both the parts and the currency situation. If he can convince Qui-Gon that he is the only being selling those parts on Tatooine, he makes the parts seem more valuable to Qui-Gon so he can demand a higher price for them. Also, if he tells Qui-Gon that Republic credits are worthless on Tatooine, he raises Qui-Gon's sense of desperation. Again, increasing the price he can ask from Qui-Gon.

    Shmi said there was no one friendly to the Republic in terms of a political institute and in the context of giving out charity. She didn't say there was no bank on Tatooine where what is most likely the most valuable and common currency in the Star Wars universe can be exchanged for the local currency.

    I guess it's like if I traveled to Shanghai as an American and tried to pay for food from a small shop with my American dollars. I probably get told that my American dollars are worthless and can't be used to buy food. But I would be wrong to conclude that I couldn't head to a bank somewhere else in Shanghai and exchange my American dollars for some yuans that I could use to buy food and other stuff. And certainly I'd be wrong to conclude that there were no banks in Shanghai or in all of China as a whole. I also might be told that people aren't super friendly to America. But still there is trade that exists between the US and China and ways of exchanging currency. Commerce doesn't necessitate being friendly always. Just being open to trade.

    Watto has major "used car salesman" vibes to me, so I'm inclined to take everything he says with a grain of salt.
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    And it's not like the Republic border is far away - Geonosis was a Republic world until it joined the Separatists, and in AOTC it's only a parsec away.
     
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  16. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    Distance doesn’t matter when hyperdrive is around. And Geonosis being a Republic World isn’t actually canon (originating with production) as far as I know. The point being, the movie indicates that Republic credits are not accepted on Tatooine, so we shouldn’t assume that Republic credits are accepted anywhere.

    Watto is a used car salesman type, and I agree that in universe he’s not trustworthy, but his dialogue was intended as exposition to set the stakes, and so I do not believe there was an easier option for Qui-Gon
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
  17. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fantastically Fiendish Fanfic Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @Watcherwithin Storytelling wise, I think it is just more exciting to have Qui-Gon gambling everything on the pod race rather than having him head over to the Star Wars equivalent of TD Bank or Capital One to exchange his Republic credits for some local currency so in terms of the story I understand why the narrative didn't have him head over to the bank.

    So it is not a super big deal to me that Qui-Gon doesn't go to the bank to exchange his money. It doesn't ruin the film for me or anything.

    Logically, though, I would find it hard not to believe there are banks on Tatooine where Republic credits can be exchanged for local currency just because even my small town has multiple banks where money can be exchanged. So I find it hard to believe that Tatooine has not a single bank that can do that.

    It's more like a minor nitpick thing for me than something that completely wrecks my immersion, though. :)
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    They can't be Separatists, without separating from somebody - the Republic. Hence it being a big deal that another 1000 worlds may join the Separatists in AOTC.

    Given that the Hutts are crimelords and that a lot of their criminal business is spice running into the Republic, I could see there being a bit of an issue with Qui-Gon not wanting to come to their attention (in case they kidnap the Queen). Maybe any attempt at trading Republic credits on a large scale, is something that requires Hutt intervention (due to all internal transactions using Hutt currency instead), and Hutt attention is what Qui-Gon seeks to avoid.
     
  19. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    Im not sure that the Geonosians are separatists, they may have been an independent system hired to make weapons for the seperatists. We never see a Geonosian senator.
     
  20. Lady_Belligerent

    Lady_Belligerent Previously Lady Belligerent, now RPF Queen/C&P Mgr star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 29, 2008
  21. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    The other thing about trying to find a bank is that Qui-Gon was trying to keep them all off the radar. There is a possibility that Sidious or one of his agents would have detected a banking attempt. Heck, even though the Queen (or Sabe in this case) didn't respond to Sio Bibble's pleas, the Sith were still able to trace them to Tatooine.

    And Qui-Gon did offer Republic credits at first before attempting the mind trick on Watto.
     
  22. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fantastically Fiendish Fanfic Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Jun 19, 2019
    I think entering a pod race is more on the radar than visiting a bank and Qui-Gon did not know about Sith involvement until after Maul attacks him.

    Watto refusing Republic credits does not give Qui-Gon the right to try to mind trick him into accepting a form of payment he does not want. What Qui-Gon is attempting is basically theft by Jedi mind trick in my opinion.

    I think George Lucas just thought a pod race sequence would be really cool and most of the Tatooine plot leading up to that in TPM is just window dressing as it were.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2022
  23. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 18, 2017
    Like, believe that he would tend to dress like either or a mix between Obi-Wan and Han.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2022
  24. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    He actually dresses like Sean Connery in Zardoz
     
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  25. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 4, 1998
    To me, Watto's monopoly on hyperdrives and refusal of legal tender is just one more contrivance in a highly contrived story necessary to advance a very convoluted subplot that exists just for a VFX extravaganza leading to an inevitable plot point. Like much of SW, it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny and isn't worth the effort to mentally retcon it to fit.
     
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