Saga Unpopular Star Wars opinions!

I remember seeing test footage on the DVDs of Christopher Lloyd wearing a black wig for the 1955 scenes in BTTF. I wonder why they didn't go with that. To me his 1955 and 1985 selves have always looked nearly identical (even in spite of the impressively subtle old-age makeup which he dispenses with at the start of Part II).

 

I think because he looked too much like Reverend Jim. I know my mom hated "Taxi" and almost left the original BTTF because he was in it. She associated the character to the man.

 

First off, apologies to @Dandelo for tagging along on your post.

Part of the issue here is that Lucas clearly drew heavily on Frank Herbert’s Dune when crafting the Star Wars universe, and as a result the Jedi bear a pretty obvious resemblance to the Bene Gesserit. For example…

• They have (some) equivocal powers

Jedi Mid Trick= The Voice
Force Speed= The Weirding Way (possibly)

• Both Orders prize self control and detachment, preferring to train initiates from early childhood if possible.
• Both have a reputation for being highly skilled warriors.
• Both seek to overcome fear, considering it “the mind killer”/“the past to the darkside”.

The list goes on…
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Bene_Gesserit_Training

Obviously in the world of Dune, the Bene Gesserit witches are genuinely sinister behind the scenes schemers, in contrast to the Jedi who were conceived more as classical romantic heroes. Nonetheless the echos of the former can still be clearly seen in the latter, and this sometimes results in the Jedi appearing to have a more sinister side (e.g. mind control powers).
Though I can understand what the attraction was at the time, with the benefit of hindsight I do wonder if making the Jedi Mind Trick a thing at all was a particularly great idea.

 

Agreed. We all manipulate each other every day to varying degrees, that's a natural part of communication, but this goes beyond that. To seize control of a weaker mind is not the way of democracy and works against what the Jedi claim to stand for, no matter what their intentions are. Everything has consequences.

GL has been known to say, though, that the ideal form of government would be a benevolent dictatorship, where the ruler is selfless and really does have the people's best interest at heart. Like what Anakin envisions. That's purely hypothetical, of course, but I think it gives us an idea of how he views the Jedi: as the ideal rulers. They would impose their will on the people, but only to do good.

The problem with that is that no matter how well-meaning a ruler is, everyone won't agree. Everyone has their own ideas about what the best course of action will be and if you force them to do things your way, eventually you're gonna get in trouble.
Dictatorship doesn't work, period. Mind control without consent will cause harm.

 

What you're talking about renders the use of the mind trick moot, since there's no need for it. The Vulcans seek consent since joining minds can have lingering effects. The Jedi wouldn't bother if it wasn't necessary. Jar Jar would be dead without it, and Luke couldn't gain access to Jabba. Every action that requires the Force has some malicious intent. Even when used to help others. But such usage is a necessary evil.

Also, you're making a wildly disproportionate comparison between dictatorship and influencing thoughts.

The idea of the Force influencing people debuted in the second draft of ANH, but there was a different approach. And it was only the dark side where it happened. In the third draft, Leia uses the Swan Sensana mind control techniques to keep Vader at bay. In the fourth draft, we finally get the trick itself. Lucas introduces it when he decides to have Stormtroopers running around Mos Eisley. It's used to raise tension without an action sequence. That's why it remains in use.

Also, in canon, it is shown to have no residual effects. No one even knows it was done to them.

 

I'm sure George Lucas probably had in mind the literal Platonic ideal of a benevolent, all-wise philosopher-king when he was talking about the "benevolent dictatorship" idea. But since that's just about impossible to implement fairly in practice among flawed humans, democracy seems like the best alternative - a sentiment with which I'm sure he'd agree.

 

The Pod race kills many important birds with one stone.

It shows how generous and selfless Anakin was, willing to risk his own life to use his talents to help people in need he doesn't even know very well. It also displays his exceptional piloting skills and propensities in the Force. Anakin was also likely inspired to do it due in part to his developing crush on Padmé. It shows Qui-Gon's dogged faith in Anakin, along with Shmi's willingness to allow Anankn to use his skills to help others even though it goes against her instincts to keep him safe.

All of which comes into play for the rest of the PT era: to name one, Anakin wanting to use his skills and talents in the Force to help others, but sometimes as a Jedi being held back by codes, ethics and restrictions, which he grew to resent.


I don't think it's a stretch to believe that there's only one junk dealer with the parts they need, considering the Queen's ship. It's like finding Lamborghini parts at a truck stop. Plus, there is likely a database to look up available parts in Mos Espa. Perhaps Watoo could've googled it on his pad, but why waste time? And as far as exchanging Republic credits, there may be an exchange around somewhere, but it would likely be a rip-off and they might not even come out with enough local currency to buy the parts.

But she did confirm that gambling was the most practical way for them to get their parts.

It's also worth remembering that time was of the essence and Tatooine was nearby. Every second they lose more people suffer. It's reasonable to think Qui-Gon figured he might have to use a mind trick on a dealer if they wouldn't accept his credits. He didn't know the one he'd find would be immune.

And Qui-Gon is not exactly meant to be seen as the paragon of perfection (unpopular opinion, I know). He bends rules and ethics to accomplish goals. However, when he does so it's for a greater good (i.e. end the suffering on Naboo), not for personal gain. Unlike Anakin's tendencies as he grows older. And it's not like Qui-Gon was trying to steal the parts from Watto, he wanted to give him credits. Yes, they're useless as currency on Tatooine, but Watto could have eventually done something with them. Is it immoral to mind trick Watto here? Maybe, but considering the bigger picture, it's forgivable. I don't think anyone would hold it against him, not even Watto if he could see past the end of his own snout.

That's the thing with mind tricks and force chokes, they are a slippery slope, but a mature Jedi uses them in moderation only when necessary to remove obstacles from the fulfillment of their duties. If someone is impeding peace and justice and they can't be reasoned with, well, sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. Was it wrong for Obi-Wan to cut off Walrus Man's arm in the Cantina to prevent him from beating up Luke?

SW deals largely in dilemmas and the Jedi riding the line of ethical actions, like... fighting a war. (And others, like Luke killing all the people on board the Death Star).
George Lucas: "It's a tough call. It's one of those conundrums, of which there's a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick by their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic?"

Seeing Luke use these powers in Jabba's palace is meant to get us wondering if he's reached that level of maturity that Obi-Wan had, or if he is in danger of being tempted into abusing his powers. Also, Luke's goals here are of a double nature. He wants to save Han because he's a skilled pilot that can help the Rebellion help a lot of people, but also because he's his friend. Will Luke be able to balance his own personal wishes with the good of the galaxy?

Warlords wreaking havoc is also not how democracy works, and the Jedi have sworn to protect democracy.

I wouldn't say that's how GL envisions the Jedi. They're not meant to be rulers in any way, but to serve the Galaxy with their gifts by maintaining peace and justice.

So will a Sith Lord controlling the Galaxy. Should Obi-Wan have let the Stormtroopers take R2 in Mos Eisley and let trillions continue to suffer indefinitely?


But back to Qui-Gon. Ultimately, he was open to other avenues. He was sure another solution would present itself, which showcases his trust in the Force. So I'd say, even if there was an exchange place, and who knows, maybe he was open to finding one in the market area, the Force wanted Qui-Gon to discover Anakin and see him for the vergence he was.

It's a cleverly crafted chapter in a cleverly crafted story, economically streamlined for a two-hour film. Full of important character development while illustrating how a selfless Jedi utilizes his skill set to find a solution to big problems on an unfavorable planet in an unfair universe.

 

Agreed.

Reading the excuses beyond this point trying to defend the mind trick from supposed good guys has a massive eye roll from me.

"but but but, they are the good guys"

"Warlords wreaking havoc is also not how democracy works"


other words

"the bad guys do bad **** so the good guys should do bad **** too!"

uh huh...

 

Personally, I'm more inclined to agree with Winston Churchill: “Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”

 

You know, you just hit on something that I overlooked last week. If Tatooine had currency exchange, it would not have been a big deal for Watto to simply take the credits and exchange it for Wupiupi. Unless there is no currency exchange on Tatooine.

Then by that rationale you are cool with Qui-Gon not using it help the Naboo? Much less Jar Jar? You're cool with Elan Sleezebaggo continuing to sell Death Sticks to people? You're cool with Stormtroopers finding the Death Star plans in Artoo? You're fine with Han, Chewbacca, Leia and the droids remaining prisoners? And with Rey being a prisoner, all out of a sense of self-righteousness?

Okay.

 

yup I'm 'cool' with all those things, because I believe in free will. And due process

by your rationale, you'd give police officers the ability to use mind control to stop people committing crimes rather than using due process and education.

I call it being moral.

But face palm me all you like, matters not one wit to me.

 

Due process? What in the blue hell are you talking about? First off, again, we have a comparison that is lopsided. The Jedi aren't using the mind trick to stop crimes, save for Obi-Wan and Elan. If they were you might have a point. Second, there is no due process to be had. The option in many of these cases would be to use "aggressive negotiations", as Anakin said. In fact, the Jedi using the mind trick avoids violence which is way better.

I call it self-righteousness because you're taking a moral stance that is dangerous, because you are willing to let people suffer in order to maintain what you perceive as a morally sound argument.

 

well...duhh I wasn't talking in relation to the movies, 'read the room'

well I call your stance dangerous because as I have said to death, you are advocating mind control.

You are clearly an "ends justify the means" type of person

I am not.

Now unless you want to make a new thread somewhere other than this one on 'unpopular philosophical opinions' we can argue until we are blue in the face if that is your pleasure, but until then I suggest we agree to disagree and move on yeah? I'm sure this is boring most everyone else.

 

So, then your view is that Obi-Wan should have killed the Stormtroopers that wanted to check their records of ownership over the droids, thereby alerting the others. Which in turn leads to a fight that endangers innocents, all simply to avoid a possible unethical course of action. One that fits in with the Jedi philosophy of violence as a last resort. That's your argument?

 

I think I have made my personal opinion perfectly clear:
I am not ok with controlling people's minds,
I am definitely not ok with "good guys" doing it, especially in cases such as Qui-Gon's which was my personal gripe in the first place.
You can take that however you wish.
Now this will be my last post on this topic, if you wish to respond go ahead but it will go unread by myself.

Bad guys like the Stepford cuckoos doing it is one thing, Jedi's, not for me.

 

But what about Charles Xavier, Jean Grey, Betsey Braddock, Emma Frost, Nathan Summers, Nate Grey, Irma Ardeen, J'onn J'onzz and M'gann M'orzz? What about Wonder Woman's lasso that does the same thing? They are good and yet, they don't always get permission. They use mind control as well.

The only time the Jedi were questionable with it was when Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace tried to control Cad Bane, and damn near killed him. What Qui-Gon did was no different from what Obi-Wan and Luke did in the OT.

 

In the morally simplistic lens of the SW Skywalker saga (where we're supposed to cheer when millions die when the Death Star blows up), Jedi mind trick is not supposed to really be seen as sketchy.

It would be interesting to see it through a less morally simplistic lens though.

 

Wow.... this topic sure has turned into a moralistic finger-pointing contest! My point of view has not changed even a little bit. If a little mind control benefits the vast majority of people and prevents millions or trillions of deaths, then definitely YES.
Oh, but I have to add that I AM a "means justify the end" type of person. Or as Spock put it, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.... or the ONE". I think it's a reasonable mindset. And morals never concerned me much anyway. Sometimes you just need to do what needs to be done, for the greater good.

 

Just in case anybody's not paying attention, that opinion is from a poster who self-identifies as 'Sith Lord.'

 

Morality isn't the problem, at least with me. Morals are actually good and are what separate the Jedi from the Sith. The problem is the notion that the Jedi cannot do anything that is beneficial to others and avoids violence. Dandelo mentions the Stepford Cuckoos, yet overlooks Charles Xavier who doesn't get permission to read minds and even control others. Then avoids giving a response for what Obi-Wan should have done with the Stormtroopers, by saying he's bored with the discussion.

 

I'm avoiding responding to you not because while I don't find it boring per say, others might, and wouldn't want to read a ping pong match.
This thread is for reading unpopular opinions.

My unpopular opinion: Jedi shouldn't use mind tricks, it's a bit shady and could lead to a rabbit hole of problems.
And yet you insist and saying "what about this person? what about that situation?"
I mention the stepford cuckoos because they are not protagonists in the usual definition of the term, they are ambiguously grey characters. And outright bad guys in shows such as The Gifted. As for Xavier....don't agree with him doing it either since you asked as he is supposedly a "good guy" too.
As for what should Obi-wan have done? I dunno, try thinking what could he do if he didn't have that ability. Maybe?. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

So again I repeat,
I do not think Jedi should use mind tricks.
It appears to be an unpopular opinion (good the thread is being used as it was intended)
you disagree with said opinion and have stated as such...which is fine.
What is it you hope to achieve by continuing this discussion? to change my mind?

 

Oh yes, you got that right. In some ways I do indeed prefer certain viewpoints of the Sith over the Jedis'. Sue me! Oh, and by the way, screen names or avatars are in no way meant to be any sort of "self-identification". This is a forum about a purely fictional work of art, has nothing to do with real life. If you look through this forum carefully, you'll encounter countless "Darth XXX". Are those users also evil in real life? Personally, I stand by my "identification" with the Sith, like it or not.

 

I beg to differ. The mind trick does more than influence thoughts - It takes control of them, imposing the Jedi's will onto the weaker mind. That's what a dictator does to its people.

The mind trick is a shortcut. A quick and easy way out of a difficult situation. Does that sound familiar to anyone?
A Jedi is patient and doesn't compromise their ethics for short-term victories, as that will harm themselves, the people they serve and the principles they claim to protect in the long run. A compromise of one's principles is a compromise of oneself.

The day we stop believing democracy can work is the day we lose it. Using undemocratic methods to protect democracy... is most unwise, to put it mildly.
Fight fire with fire and fire will prevail. Stoop to the level of your enemies and you will become one of them. Protect democracy by breaking the rules of democracy and it will be lost.
This is one of the most important messages of the Skywalker Saga.

That is patently untrue. Rushing to someone's aid, shielding them from harm or helping their body heal is the opposite of malicious. Unless it's consciously and deliberately done at the cost of someone else's safety or well-being.

I'm not saying they're meant to be rulers, just that they represent what the ideal ruler would be: A selfless servant of the greater good.

Yes, that is undoubtedly the case.

 

The dictator uses lies and manipulations to without a need for mind control. Palpatine just used people's own fears and prejudices against them, to give him control. The Jedi don’t do that at all. Yes, they influence them to take credits or to ignore them, but they let go when done. It is used sparingly and only when necessary.

First off, it was never stated by the Jedi to be a compromise of their ethics. Nor did Lucas. Second, the quick and easy path has to do with gaining power. All who train in the Jedi Arts face immediate temptation to acquire more power. Once they get a taste, it can become intoxicating. This is where intense training and mental discipline come in, to avoid being controlled by the power they wield. Qui-Gon doesn't want power over people. He is looking for a solution to a difficult situation.

Every use of the Force on a living being is a danger to the Jedi, because the rush of power and emotion is high. Even when a Jedi is doing the right thing, it can be bad. They have to fight using the bad and work with the good, in order to remain a Jedi. Even when Yoda saves Anakin and Obi-Wan from being crushed, he's using the bad to do good.

Lucas wasn't applying it to the films, but even if you do, the Jedi aren't the rulers here. They are working with the government and the Force. You take the Gungans, Qui-Gon is advocating expediency in the name of helping others. Then to help Jar Jar himself. He uses the bad for good. Obi-Wan later uses it to avoid fighting. When the mind trick causes problems is if the Jedi do not think about consequences. Luke uses it on Bib Fortuna knowing that it could get him fired or punished for it. In the end it doesn't matter as Jabba is killed and Bib lives for a few years before Boba Fett killed him.

 

You like to split hairs and rationalize everything the Jedi do, but that doesn't change the fact that they, like dictators, forcibly impose their will onto others.
They let them go afterwards... So what? You think it won't have consequences for whoever is subjected to the mind trick and forced to do something they're not supposed to do?

And so what if it's never stated to be a compromise of their ethics? It is a compromise of their ethics, because it goes against what they claim to stand for. Their allegiance is to democracy, yet they will force people to do their bidding.
They choose the quick and easy path to peace and order. That's a fact. And that choice will always come back and bite you in the butt.

And no, using bad to do good is never necessary. Nor is it good. Even if your intentions are noble, the bad is still bad.
Sooo... if using the Force is in itself bad, then maybe it shouldn't be used?