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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Vader/Anakin Ghost in Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by WhiskeyGold, Jul 26, 2004.

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  1. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    " if Coppola wanted to change anything in any of the Godfather movies I would support his right to do that 100% "

    Thats nice appleseed, but Im pretty sure that any actor, designer, or craftsman whose work is about to be changed X amount of years after its showcase, wouldnt be too supportive, nor would the lawyers of the very strong unions that represent these various factions of making a film. Its not just the director and producer that stands to gain or lose with a film. Again, with SW - where you are required to suspend disbelief - its not as glaring as other types of film. And by no means does that mean that SAG or whatever organization represented Shaw isnt going to bitch. Believe me, somebody is going to bitch. Peoples livelihoods are at stake here, sooner or later, with this type of technology. Dont be so quick to support it because it sits easier for SW fans ( of which I am a huge fan ) to see Hayden Christensens' face at the end of RotJ as opposed to Sebastian Shaw. If you asked SW fans before the PT was officially announced to be made, that yes we can make a PT but there is going to be some continuity issues due to the fact that we made the OT in the late seventies and early eighties and the technology was primitive and besides, who can predict things in life? NOBODY WOULD HAVE SAID SH@#!! People were so happy that it was being made and thats all that mattered because we trusted LFL to do a good job. And guess what? THEY DID A GOOD JOB!! Stopped being spoiled, SW fans. It wont be that big of a deal if Shaws face is at the end of RotJ, it wont be a big deal if the first duel in ANH or any duel in the OT stays exactly how it is, and it wont be a big deal if Yoda or any other creature that would have CGI'D if it were the PT, stays exactly how they are.
     
  2. anakin_skywalker_vi

    anakin_skywalker_vi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    i think its a big slap in the face for Sebastian Shaw. i personally think it should be left alone.. in my mind even though he turn to the darkside and half machine.. his flesh was still alive.. and still aging..what was left of it.. and he looks 80 taking the mask off because of what the darkside did to him..the same thing happeing to palpatine. but when anakin did died ,and went to the light side again , and his spirit appeared without the affects of the darkside.. and what he would have looked like normal if he didnt turn to the darkside.it makes more sense to me .. it looked a regualer 40/50ish old man. his flesh was still alive and ageing,just like everybody else.. when he was vader.. he was around the age 40ish/50ish years old and he return to the lightside that age and died that aged.. it should be left alone to me that makes more sense. i hope people you guys understand what i am trying to say.. i tryed to explain the best i can.
     
  3. fosh-bantus88

    fosh-bantus88 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2003
    IMO this is total crap.

    the weaker half of the trilogy should not destroy the vision of the pre-existing brilliant half of the triolgy.

    lucas has had a very great film career and made some great movies. but with the way he has exploited his one masterpiece, i have lost all respect for him.

    if this stupid mockery of my childhood is now the only "star wars" out there, than i guess im not a star wars fan.
     
  4. JediDa-cam18

    JediDa-cam18 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2001
    The only thing I dont like in the new version, and it really kind of sticks out for me is that in the old version when Anakin phases in hes looking at Obi-Wan then looks on at Luke and Liea, in the new version Anakin phases looking down and up, never making eye contact with obi-wan.
     
  5. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001

    "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed."

    Obi-Wan Kenobi / Return of the Jedi
     
  6. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2002
    I think the change makes a lot of sense. Obi Wan told Luke that Anakin isn't alive anymore since the Emperor "took" him thus he "died" at a young age. Obi Wan died as an old man. Yoda died old too. Why should they be younger?

    I will miss Shawn's eyebrows in the scene where Luke reveals his fathers face. Maybe it will be not a big deal I just think eyebrows add to characteristics.

    Why should Luke not know it's his father. I can't see how this doesn't make sense to some of these members. And no, Hayden doesn't look menacing. He just has this sort of "ah" look as he sees him again as Anakin and then this guarding my kids look which isn't evil or anything.
     
  7. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Those are two completely different circumstances and you know it.

    Hey, I'm just responding to a standard you put forward, you said that if the director is dead the film shouldn't be changed.

    My advice: go to eBay. Find a O-OT transfer and pick it up, and stop beating a dead horse.

    thanks for the advice, however, as far as I know these O-OT transfers are off a letterbox LD and so won't be as good as an anamorphic DVD.
    Now here's my advice - I and others have opinions on these matters and we're going to express them and I'm not going to stop just cos you don't like it.

    I'm not 100% sold on this change, but I'm willing to go into it with an open mind.

    I had that approach in '97 just before the SEs, but since then I'm sceptical about Lucas's meddling.

    The ghost scene is from Luke's POV, narratively it's a big 'W T H ?' Luke has seen what his father looks like shortly beforehand, and now he looks like a different person.
    Dumb.

    g

     
  8. Star Wars Fan X

    Star Wars Fan X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    On the removed eyebrows thing...

    I'm geussing that the eyebrows have been removed because now that episode 3 has been made Lucas realized that "Well now that I've done the scene I suddenly realize that I burnt off all of his facial hair including the eyebrows" The removal of the eyebrows in ROTJ is probably just to make it consistent with the injuries Hayden will receive in ROTS now that Lucas knows more about what the scene looks like.

    Besides when you think about it, how likely is it that Anakin endured a burning accident that rendered him permanently bald but miraculously left his eyebrows intact?

    I'm gonna miss the brows but I suppose it actually does make sense

    (unlike the Hayden force ghost thing - that doesn't and won't make intuitive sense to anyone who hasn't read Lucas' interviews)
     
  9. Star Wars Fan X

    Star Wars Fan X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    Also...

    A word to all those who are going by Ben's explanation about Anakin having "ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader" as why the ghost appears younger.

    I would hasten to point out that that is only
    "from a certain point of view" as Ben would say.

    A point of view Luke disagrees with when he says that Anakin is the name of his father's true self which he has only forgotten.

    As Luke's view is what caused him to make his successful redemption attempt I think Ben was wrong.
    Ben didn't even think Anakin could be redeemed. Ben's words and feelings are not exactly gospel here.

    So again, the Hayden force ghost thing doesn't wash because Ben was in error. Anakin Skywalker never ceased to be, that's why he was redemmable. Thus his ghost should appear as Shaw, not as Hayden. His spirit never stopped aging, it was never even gone. Just buried.
     
  10. Star Wars Fan X

    Star Wars Fan X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    Anyone care to try and refute my arguments? I think they make perfect sense.

    Yay/Nay?

    Let me hear!
     
  11. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001
    Interesting point mr. X

    I brought up Obi-Wan's dialogue from ROTJ but I didn't say if I was pro or contra the "Shaw-Switch". (I guess I'm neutral) I only thought it would be relevant to the discussion.

    My take on the issue is simple: the story doesn't tell me anything about the mechanics of Force ghost appearances and their implications, so I'll take what I see at face value and won't worry about it.
     
  12. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Are we all operating under the assumption that this is official?
     
  13. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    I think it makes perfect sense for it to be Hayden/Episode III Anakin

    He has some serious attachments to that "form", attachment is a keyword when talking about Anakin.

    He was with his love, he was still a Jedi, he was about to become a father (that is if he knows about his child/ren) and lets not forget - he could still breathe without having to rely on mechanics.

    Think about it, the last time Anakin truly "lived" (not only his mental self but his physical self) was before everything went seriously wrong & he came to live in a suit for 30 years. Come to think of it, i doubt Anakin himself even knows what he looks like at the end of ROTJ.

    All he could have truly seen (in his personal chamber without the helmet) is a heavily scarred face that reminded him of betrayals, guilt, failure etc etc.
     
  14. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001
    Whoa, that's pretty good Obi-Frans. In simple words: The Force ghost appears in a form that is comfortable to him. Hey, whatever, I don't care, the "Force ghost manual" doesn't contradict it. ;)
     
  15. Star Wars Fan X

    Star Wars Fan X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    To Obi-Frans

    I'm not totally against that actually. In fact its probably the only explanation that I would buy. A bunch of "Lucas-can-do-no-wrong"ers have tried to come up with a whole bunch of silly explanations elsewhere.

    Stepping outside of "the reasons for it" for a moment though, I also think that anything that happens in a movie that is fairly important to plot and character should either be

    1.explained/implied so as not to confuse 1st time viewers of the work or

    2.make a fair amount of intuitive sense

    Anakin's ghost appearing as the age he was when he was unmasked makes "intuitive" sense because the audience will assume that the ghost is nothing more than a semi-reflection of his physical form .

    Anakin's ghost appearing 20 years younger than how we just saw him physically is non-intuitive and therefore must be justified.

    If Lucas explains this in Episode III (and reasonably well) than I think that'll be fine.

    But if he doesn't then he's left the audience to figure out a fairly important detail on there own. He'll have left them scratching their heads searching for an expanation not present in the films.

    Interviews, outside-the-movie, eu conversations don't count because a viewer of the films should not have to go to material outside the films to understand them, only to enhance thier experience if they so choose. To justify the change he'll have to justify it within the context of the films.

    As it stands today we have no explanation for why Anakin should appear so young. We only have theories. If a suitable explnation is not given then I think it will be a change for the worse.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
  16. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001
    Well, I guess the sequence is cursed either way. As it is now there's no explaination for why ghost Anakin is not bald anymore, and why his scars are gone.

    I would count that as the effects of aging too, so why can he neglect those?
    And if all that matters is that he is recognizable to Luke, why would he do that?
     
  17. Star Wars Fan X

    Star Wars Fan X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    I would like to think that his appearence at the end in his healthy older form is sort of like a gift of the force. Its Anakin healthy and without his machine parts.

    Its like a mutated person or crippled person looking healed and beautiful or being able to walk in the afterlife.

    One would like to think that in the afterlife of good Jedi, the mortal wounds they suffered would not matter. Hence he has hair and is free from scars and missing limbs. The appearence of his healed body is a direct reflecion of his healed spirit which he gained upon saving Luke.

    To me that warms my heart.

    On the other hand the whole "imagining himself as he was before he fell" implies that under that sleeve of his, ghost-hayden is missing his arm courtesy of count dooku since that happened before he had long hair. Sure he might be imagining himself with a real hand but then why imagine yourself younger? That would by extension imply that he was unhappy with the way he would have looked with his healed aged form. That implies discomfort with the self which is not how Anakin should be feeling at that point. He should be feeling nothing but peace and harmony with who he is at last...

    Older, infinitely wiser and healed at long last.

    That's why I feel the way I do and I feel that using Hayden's face completely ruins all of that.
     
  18. appleseed

    appleseed Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    thanks for the advice, however, as far as I know these O-OT transfers are off a letterbox LD and so won't be as good as an anamorphic DVD.

    LFL told you and everybody else the O-OT would never be available again almost a decade ago, so you just have to take what you can get...that's what I did.

    I'm sorry you can't be open-minded about Lucas' work any more...I suggest you find somebody else's work that you do like and just entertain yourself with it.

    And you of course have your right to your opinion...just as I do mine. Did you like the old ROTJ? I know many people who dislike Lucas point to it as the point where he lost it or whatever.

    lucas has had a very great film career and made some great movies. but with the way he has exploited his one masterpiece, i have lost all respect for him.

    Ever hear of American Graffiti? Because it's damn well a masterpiece and one can easily argue it's Lucas' best movie.

    And..."exploited"?? Please, get a grip.
     
  19. Tokio_Drifter

    Tokio_Drifter Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Obi-Frans nailed it:

    'Come to think of it, i doubt Anakin himself even knows what he looks like at the end of ROTJ.'

    It is obvious Anakin's 'strange' reaction at the celebration in ROTJ is related to this statement. Look how shy he reacts, how he takes a good look at himself. Ha, you might say he's 'affraid' (in a shy, innocent way) to look old Obi-wan in the eyes!
    Mesa back!

    Strange or weird, as many people call it, is always something you don't understand (yet), or where you haven't found the right perspective for, to understand why it is as it is.

    '....and ofcourse this (neverending)-story is also about letting go, about accepting change and try to understand and benefit from it instead of beeing draged allong by it.'

    Try a bit harder next time, before you judge. Practically all choices Lucas makes regarding SW are based upon a reason, which contributes to the story, one way or antoher.

    :)
     
  20. Spike_Spiegel

    Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Keep it nice and remember, no EIII spoilers!
     
  21. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    Firstly, had the change been to replace Sebastian Shaw?s image with Hayden Christiansen, aged with make up etc. to appear 50 years old or so (or at least, visibly and obviously older than we see him in RotS*), then the change would have been purely superficial- simply making Anakin more recognisable to the audience of all 6 films as being Anakin (I actually remember seeing it when I was about 6 and not realising straight away who the ghost was?)

    However, something has been altered that affects the way the Force is depicted in the films; while Obi Wan?s ghost is obviously the image of Obi Wan at the time he died and became one with the Force, Anakin?s ghost is now clearly the image of Anakin 25 years or so before he died and became one with the Force. Because of the hair, it can be specifically pinpointed as being around the time of Episode III. So something must have happened to Anakin?s ?spirit? at around this time, when he became Darth Vader.

    In TPM, when he can?t face leaving his mother behind, she warns him that ?you can?t stop change, any more than you can stop the setting of the suns.? In AOTC, we see Anakin?s efforts to stop his mothers death, and his subsequent anguish at his failure, and his vow to become more powerful, that ?one day I will even learn to stop death.? It seems to me that this is a progression of the same theme- Anakin somehow does learn to stop his own death, but rather than this just relying on a life-support suit to keep his body alive after his critical injuries, this also involves a spiritual effort to resist the natural progression of things. What started out as a desire for power to help others has turned into a need for power to help himself- something that he can?t turn back from without facing death. Physically, he is obviously ?trapped? in the Vader suit. But Darth Vader is more than merely a suit mask; spiritually, he is utterly consumed by and reliant on the Dark Side; if he ?lets go?, then he dies.
     
  22. Star Wars Fan X

    Star Wars Fan X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    I'm willing to accept that Lucas thinks he's making the change for a good reason.

    But choices that are based on reasons don't by definition make those reasons good.

    I think there are perfectly good reasons NOT to change the scene.

    The most important reason I think is that the original shows an older Anakin at peace rather than a younger Anakin at peace.

    I think that its fitting that at the end of his life Anakin found peace and that visually the end of his life should be represented by his older form.

    With his younger form its like its a reward for coming back. But a reward in what sense? Do younger forms matter in the after life? It seems to drag the mystique of the afterlife into the realm of the material and physical again by claiming that youth matters when you're dead.

    I don't really like that message. It makes the
    afterlife seem less inspiring and wonderful somehow.

    Besies which, the instinctive question most viewers will rightfully ask when they see that change for the first time (whether they've ever seen the movie or not) will be "How come Anakin looks so much younger?"

    Unless Lucas is prepared to answer that question within the films themselves he's forcing the audience to wonder about something 5 seconds away from the end of the saga which TOTALLY takes away from the feelings, peace, relief and happiness they should be feeling instead.

    What do you guys think of those arguments?
     
  23. Tokio_Drifter

    Tokio_Drifter Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2003
    I am confident Episode III will cover this matter.
     
  24. Star Wars Fan X

    Star Wars Fan X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
  25. Piett

    Piett Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 1998
    I for one am upset that Jake Lloyd wasn't inserted as Anakin's ghost.









    ;)
     
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