Vader/Anakin Ghost in Jedi

Did you think it made sense with Shaw? If so, do you think it really needed to be changed? Or is it a case of what Lucas says goes?

 

To me it made sense with Shaw when we didn't know what Anakin really looked like, now that we know he looked like Hayden, having Hayden makese more sense now.

 

As I always have, I will continue to turn directly to the source material/the comments of those who created it to gain my knowledge/understandings/feelings/opinions, not to random posters on the internet who do not share my enthusiasm/willingness to learn.

For me it?s that enthusiasm to learn and understand that makes the Hayden ghost so meaningless. I?ve yet to read any satisfactory rebuke to any of the myriad reasons why the Shaw ghost is much more reflective of the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. But nonetheless, I'll be open to the possibility if any plausible explantion of the Hayden ghost is every conveyed. And, uh, I hate to appear glib, but if you?re not all interested in the opinions of random posters on the internet, then an internet message board is probably not the best place to hang around.

For now, though, I think Go-Mer hits the nail right on the head in that the change was nothing more than a simple visual cue meant to offer a blatant connection to the PT. Sad that so much thematic resonance had to be sacrificed in order to get that change.

 

Actually, I was saying the change makes more sense now that we have the prequels. Before that, Shaw was fine, but now we know what Anakin looks like, so it should be Hayden as the Force Ghost.

It was not a cheap visual link to the prequels, it fits within the original intention of the scene as it was in the original original trilogy.

Lucas did this to preserve the thematic resonance you aren't getting now for whatever reason.

I think if he left it as it was, it would have lost it'original meaning.

 

Anyone who still has doubts about the Vader/Anakin thing, just look at these comments. There is no debate. Good job Stryphe.

Thanks, hawk. Good to see you again, BTW.


The reason they used Shaw in the original is because the only link we had to who Anakin was (at that time), was that brief unmasking scene. It would have been confusing for the audience to use a different actor at that point.

No, they could have used Hammil for the role. Its been done before, having one actor play two related characters. It provides someone with another physical similiarties to be visibly related (obviously, since it really is the same person) but clever makeup technics cause the person to look like a separate individual.

Or, he could have casted someone younger than Shaw as Anakin. In the unmasking scene, he was in heavy make-up anyway, so he could have casted someone who was 30, made them look about 50 with Vader make-up and then in the ghost scene made them look mid-twenties. Easily done.


Having Hayden instead of Shaw just drives home the point that it's the good person who was Luke's father that was saved, not the bad person who was Darth Vader.

There never was a Vader, not really. It was just a name to hide his identity, but it didn't cause him to really "be" someone else, body and soul. In fact, neither.


Because Lucas had wanted to wait until the PT, to have the current PT Anakin.

If the younger, purer was always a part of his story, he could have casked a younger Anakin and then when he did the PT, digital replaced him all the same, like he did with Palpatine. Having Monkey Woman in ESB did not keep him from casting Ian as Palpatine in ROTJ, did not force him to change it in 1997, but still allowed him to change it in 2004.


But also because he decided to alter the view of Anakin's redemption. By showing the good before the bad

But instead he shows "Vader". He gives us the face of someone who murdered children. I know that you are right on Lucas's intention, but by having Vader turn evil before being put in the suite, Lucas paints himself in a corner if he wants to go this route. He forces himself to have to go back even further and have Hayden look like his 18 year old self, or something along those lines.


As I always have, I will continue to turn directly to the source material/the comments of those who created it to gain my knowledge/understandings/feelings/opinions, not to random posters on the internet who do not share my enthusiasm/willingness to learn.

Going to make this conversation personal? I wouldn't advice it.


To me it made sense with Shaw when we didn't know what Anakin really looked like

We've know what Anakin looked like since 1983.


I think if he left it as it was, it would have lost it'original meaning.

How does taking the face of Anakin at his death, only making him whole, healed and happy, in Jedi robes and along with friends of his past take away from the original meaning? Wasn't the meaning just to show he was redeemed? Shaw still makes that point for me.

But if having an older Anakin who looked like he did at his death takes away from the meaning, then it always did. To fix it, there were the options of casking a younger actor as I described above. I don't understand how having a different actor for a much younger Anakin in movies filmed years later changing anything about that final scene.

 

You knew he would look like Hayden? I didn't.

Hammil would have made a bad choice because it would have muddied the subtext of the "tree" sequence on Dagobah. Suddenly it wouldn't neccesarily be Luke under the mask, it could have been Anakin.

Since back then Lucas was thinking he probably wouldn't get around to the preuqels, he didn't have to go out of his way to make Shaw look like a younger Anakin, he could just clean Shaw up real nice and approximate the same idea.

It's just now that we have Hayden in the prequels, suddenly it's Vader as the Force Ghost, not Anakin. So to me the change was neccesary to preserve Lucas' original intent.

 

By the way, Go-Mer, I added an edit to the end of my last post.

I don't agree about Hammel muddling up that scene, but even still, if I did, I listed two possible ways he could have worked with a younger actor for that scene.


You knew he would look like Hayden? I didn't.

Anakin didn't look like Hayden when he died, he looked much older since, you know, twenty plus years went by. You keep implying the man lying in front of the shuttle wasn't Anakin, if he wasn't, then how was Anakin redeemed?

 

He was Anakin, looking out through the twisted wreck of a man he had become as Vader.

When he dies, he is able to shed his Vader persona, and only Anakin remains.

Thats how it was originally, even with Shaw. They didn't show Anakin after he was cut down to torso size and burned by Lava, they showed a version of him when he was whole, with a full head of hair. It certainly wasn't the same visage we saw was under the mask.

 

Lucas did this to preserve the thematic resonance you aren't getting now for whatever reason.

Again, the young Anakin was a man who lost control of his life to the point that he murdered his peers, children, chocked his pregnant wife, and ultimately proved incapable of defeating the Sith.

Shaw represented a man who had gone the distance through age and experience, one who survived his own sins on the way to finally fulfilling the prophecy he was meant to, the one he couldn?t fulfill as a young man.

Therefore, thematic resonance = lost. The Hayden ghost strives to paint a happy-go-lucky picture dependant on the audience assuming that the young Anakin portrayed by Hayden was a complete man who found balance. This certainly wasn?t the case, and thus from my point of things the Hayden ghost totally undermines the time spent as Vader.


When he dies, he is able to shed his Vader persona, and only Anakin remains.

Thats how it was originally, even with Shaw. They didn't show Anakin after he was cut down to torso size and burned by Lava, they showed a version of him when he was whole, with a full head of hair.

Like Stryphe said, the young man before the mutilation was still Vader. This being the case, the Hayden ghost is very much a regression, while Shaw best represented the entirely new ?persona? Anakin/Vader gained upon finally finding the will to enact that final act of selfless sacrifice.

 

The Shaw persona was more "good" Anakin than the Hayden persona ever was, or probably the Lloyd persona for that matter. All the baggage that turned the young man into darth Vader was for the first time gone altogether.

 

No, up until Anakin turned he was still a good person. That's who we see as a force ghost.

And the Shaw ghost did not represent the man under the mask, he represented the man before he looked like he did under the mask. Resonance you are talking about = was never there to begin with.

 

Hayden has been cast in Harry Potter & the Half Blood Prince

 

And, uh, I hate to appear glib, but if you?re not all interested in the opinions of random posters on the internet, then an internet message board is probably not the best place to hang around.

You totally misunderstand my comment.

I absolutely enjoy discussing STAR WARS with other fans/reading/hearing their perceptions/experiences where STAR WARS is concerned. I absolutely appreciate/respect the STAR WARS fan they are. And the internet can be a cool way of doing this, because we can hear from/communicate with STAR WARS fans from all over the world and that's fun.

But, we must be smart. Information from non-source related people isn't always accurate/sincere. Best to go directly to the source for information.

After all, when our children are doing a report on a book we take them to the library to find information on that book for their book report, not to some stranger on the street who read that book who may not give accurate/sincere information concerning that book.

My comment was in response to a suggestion directed towards me that was done in an attempt to belittle/insult source material/creators of the source material/myself and this was done for no good reason (there never is a good reason).

And I don't care. It has nothing to do with STAR WARS/it's creators/me and it's not a reflection on STAR WARS/it's creators/me.

Gaining knowledge the way I do is total common sense. Being receptive of other STAR WARS fans perceptions/experiences is a pleasure. Being cautious on the internet is a must.

Have fun.

I have fun.

And I absolutely enjoy the imaginative/revealing/clarifying change to the STAR WARS Saga that comes with the addition of Hayden Christensen in STAR WARS EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE JEDI.

 

And the Shaw ghost did not represent the man under the mask, he represented the man before he looked like he did under the mask. Resonance you are talking about = was never there to begin with.

Never said he specifically represented the physical form under mask. What the Shaw ghost did represent, though, was the new form maintained through the Force after Anakin Skywalker finally found the balance necessary to topple the Sith. It was akin to Anakin entering a spiritul afterlife ,which meant his body at the time of death was finally released and allowed to appear in the image it would?ve looked like had the mutilation not taken place. Much like Obi-Wan?s ghost, which appears not as Ewan, and not as an old man with a lightsaber burn across his chest, but rather an unmarred form of his body at the time of death.

My comment was in response to a suggestion directed towards me that was done in an attempt to belittle/insult source material/creators of the source material/myself and this was done for no good reason (there never is a good reason).

Are you referring to the comment in which someone say you only need to look at the posts directly above and below yours to see that the Hayden ghost is problematic?
If so, then I don?t think that was an insult done for no good reason. It was done because you stated a generality that did nothing to refute specific evidence being brought up against the Hayden ghost.

 

When he dies, he is able to shed his Vader persona, and only Anakin remains.

However, the persona was a choice. Once he tossed Palpatine down a shaft, there was no Vader because he had choosen differently. The scars and the black suite didn't make him Vader, and you are right, showing him healed beyond that is very appropriate and symbolic.


Thats how it was originally, even with Shaw.

Yes, which goes to my point that using Shaw doesn't deluit the message.


They didn't show Anakin after he was cut down to torso size and burned by Lava

He wasn't all cut to piece when he took the name Vader and started killing Jedi children. But he did look like he did in the ROTJ scene.

 

That same man who wasn't cut to pieces yet was also, the same man who said "his fate will be the same as ours" and refused to leave his best friend/mentor/brother to die on the Invisible Hand.

That is the same man, the same Jedi, as the one who WAS cut to pieces.

That Jedi, the good man who was Anakin Skywalker, The Chosen One before he fell, is the man who should be there as a Force Ghost. And he is.

 

He may have been a decent person at heart, but he was an emotionally tormented, unhappy person with more baggage than Heathrow. If that's what you want as your lasting image of the good man who was Anakin Skywalker, then fair enough.

 

You got to it before I could Duckie. I agree. Anakin before his turn, was not the heoric, all around "good" person. He had a lot of issues, and the man after the unmasking of Vader is the person who went through the pain of losing everything he had, depending on a machine to live, being caged in a suit, and then finally meeting his son. All of this and more is what made him "good" again in the first place.

 

I think its interesting that many have a soft corner for Anakin being stuck in the suit, finally learning his lesson. However, it was Luke who didn't want the mask removed. He was quite contented that Anakin inside became "good" again without having to see him. Luke believed that Anakin was always good ever since Obi Wan spoke about him, but later found out that his father "turned" to the Darkside...YET was very sure he was good inside somewhere and was brought back. But what did Anakin say? "you were right about me", that ME is the Anakin BEFORE he "turned" (because he knew all those years ago he erred and was tormented throughout), so it makes sense to see THAT Jedi as the Ghost along with the other two Jedi who were always Jedi.

Finally Luke believe already that Anakin was still a Jedi, even before he was saved by his father. Overall I believe Luke must see how his father was before the turn so that it is known that the Jedi are back and that he (Luke) will continue the legacy that is the Jedi.

 

I have to disagree. The old Anakin was the one who redeemed himself, the one who saved his son and the Galaxy. Not the young one. There was always Anakin inside of Vader, and when he emerges again, he has grown, both mentally and physically.

 

Thanks anakin_luver

I think the main problem with Christensen appearing is that it creates an impression of Anakin reverting to something that we'd previously been. The way I see it, Anakin didn't "become good again" in the sense of reclaiming an identity that we'd seen in a previous film. When Vader threw Sidious down the shaft and turned away from the dark, he transformed into a version of Anakin who we'd never before seen, who was finally liberated from the mental and emotional torment that had plagued him through most of his life and brought about his turn to the dark. Having a new persona for the character at that point conveyed that message well, going back to Christensen blurs it.

p.s. I think Luke only wanted the helmet to stay on because he didn't want Anakin to die.

 

Again, I agree with you Duckie. And you're take on the whole "good again" issue is sound as well. He did become this new person, but he was always the same man, who had both made the mistakes and learned from them. He became good again altogether.

 

Sometimes, seeing as how Hayden and Mark look so much alike, I wonder to myself, "Do people think the guy's head, under the exploding Vader mask in the Dagobah cave trial is Luke... or Anakin? Can they tell the difference?"

LOL

 

I disagree because Anakin never looked like the Sebastian Shaw version when he was mutilated and if his ghost was suppose to look like Shaw, then he should've been a limbless, burnt-up body beyond recognition. A ghost is suppose to adopt the image of the person as they've looked when they died like for instance, if a person died young then their ghost will be that of a young person or if they died old, then the ghost will be an old person. Obi-wan and Yoda were very old when they died so their ghosts looked just like they did while Anakin died for a few seconds during the course of being encased in the Darth Vader suit (you can hear his heart stop beating as soon as the Vader mask is strapped onto his charred face until it started beating again once the helmet was put on him) so that when Anakin dies again in ROTJ, then his ghost should look like his younger self because that was how Anakin remembered himself before being burnt and locked inside an oxygen mask for 25 years.

 

You're contradicting yourself PMT99:

1.A ghost is suppose to adopt the image of the person as they've looked when they died

2.when Anakin dies again in ROTJ

You're saying that Anakin died twice. Even if this were true, surely the ghost would represent how Anakin looked at the time of his final death?