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Vader/Anakin Ghost in Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by WhiskeyGold, Jul 26, 2004.

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  1. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    Yes, that was Obi-Wan's point of view. That's the difference. George Lucas treats Obi-Wan and Yoda's point of view as though it were fact.

    Right, GL has declared it so, and since this is fiction and his story, we're kind of stuck with that. What I challenge is that (a) it fits with everything else, and (b) its the real reason. The only thing that makes sense to me is he wanted have a visual connection to the PT and to Anakin/Vader. If he wanted to show a Luke/Ben "POV", he would have done so in 1983. Why not?

    I believe he came up with this as an in-story reason to justify the visual change. But who knows, maybe I am wrong. I can't read GL's mind.



     
  2. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    That's hardly a good excuse, for reasons Darth-Stryphe has already mentioned.
     
  3. DARTHCLANDESTINE

    DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 17, 2005
    Yes, that was Obi-Wan's point of view. That's the difference. George Lucas treats Obi-Wan and Yoda's point of view as though it were fact

    Well, Im talking about what has been said (officially by the characters in the movies). Obi Wan tells Luke Luke, ? you're [/b (that means Luke HIMSELF) is going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our OWN (Luke?spoint of view). A la Luke?s truth clinging on to the belief that his father was a young Jedi Knight who apparently turned.

    This shows nothing but Obi-Wan defending his point of view, which was proven wrong (and Luke right) by the end of that movie.

    That?s correct. Luke was indeed RIGHT. That?s why its Luke who carries the Jedi flame eventually and not for arguments sake Leia.


    But, isn't it a little amusing that, given what they tell Luke about Anakin, HE belives that he's still 'there', but Obi-Wan and Yoda don't believe that? "Where" do they believe Anakin is? They believe he was "consumed by Darth Vader"....

    They were WRONG. Why? Because Padme even said so herself. You think Obi Wan believed that when he heard her say it? Hmmm.


    Secondly, Luke never knew "the Young Jedi Knight". What he believed and knew, was that Anakin still lived in Vader. That he wasn't 'consumed', just 'hidden' (even purposely hidden by 'Vader' himself).

    Luke doesn?t need to have really KNOWN Anakin because he obviously has never lived with him. But it was Luke who says and believes it was hidden.


    [/i]If that's the case (it just being down to Luke's belief), it doesn't exactly bolster Lucas's 'absolute' matter-of-fact statement. The difference is, Luke believing things he was told about what kind of person Anakin was (by Obi-Wan at least; he seems to ignore Yoda's comment in ESB) isn't the same thing as what the other characters AND us, the audience, see and know about Anakin. [/i]

    But its Luke who believes :) Luke doesn't know there is an audience ;)

    With AOTC and the first half of ROTS, we see that Anakin, even before his turn, wasn't exactly the "saint" that Kenobi conveys to Luke years later. Besides, if he "died", how does he come back in ROTJ (especially given Yoda's 'doom-laden' pronouncements in ESB and ROTJ about the Dark Side)?

    They were WRONG. These guys never had family bonds. Blood is thicker.

    And let's not forget, as a poster above mentioned, the lack of imprecision involved in pinpointing when and where in ROTS Anakin effectively "ends" and Vader alone is left.

    But don?t you think Luke?s point of view supercede everything?

    (on a side note, even acknowledging Vader's 'contemptuous' view of Anakin, expressed in ROTJ, as though some sort of "psychological suicide" had occured years before

    Vader admitted it was too late for him. Luke tells him that he?s incorrect, that the good was not driven fully from him.

    ; this can be no more than Anakin's way of coping with having "murdered" his beloved Padme, much like Obi-Wan's view of Anakin as an unquestionably good-man, was his own way of dealing with Anakin's "death" on Mustafar.)

    Actually it still works. You could say that Vader believing he KILLED Luke?s mother, and THAT particular incident, forever determined he has fallen completely to the Darkside. Heaven forbid he tell that to Luke :eek:

    But when Luke tells him ?then my father is truly dead?. Vader (his stare on the bridge standing near the rails) could be contemplating that he can?t let his son actually die or be turned, nor have Luke lose his father without him knowing that he actually was still hidden in the Vader persona.

    Maybe that?s why Vader decides to save his son. He also realizes although he dies he can save himself from the Darkside and that with the death of the Emperor, Luke can remain a living Jedi to begin the next era.

    So, with the above, I don't see even a 'metaphorical death', being justified as an absolute phenomenon in the story.

    Actually with Luke's view, Anakin's dea
     
  4. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003

    Darth-Stryphe, are you disagreeing/agreeing with me, DARTHCLANDESTINE, someone else, or a combination thereof?
     
  5. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003
    Yes, we're 'stuck' with his 'expanation', but that doesn't mean that his words take precedence over what we see and hear ourselves when watching the movie.


    If you are refering to George's 'explanation' as not fitting criterias (a) and (b), I agree.


    Well, yes that makes sense. Problem is, his 'explanation' doesn't make sense in light of what the Star Wars "hexology" have already established.

    But, I agree with you on the "POV" thing.

    (Man, I hope we're not 'talking past each other' here! 8-})


    Well, his words are sort of a clue as to what he's thinking.

    Keep in mind what he has said regarding "Anakin's loss of limbs = loss of Force power". And the fact that he feared fans were confused in the 'early days' as to whether Han Solo had just killed Greedo in cold-blood for no reason, as though audiences hadn't bothered to read the sub-titles and pick-up on the 'subtext' of the movie.





    - TOSCHISTATION
     
  6. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    Toschi, yes, we 90% agree. I was merely giving DartC a nod for his justification of "Lucas says so", simply because GL does, and GL wrote the story. I agree with you, though, that while GL is entitled to give us whatever reason he wants for Hayden being in the OT, it doesn't make it a good reason and it does not mean that it makes sense.

    Where we may disagree is on this point: I don't think Hayden in ROTJ works on any level. Even if GL just said "I did it for the audience, Force ghosts aren't bound by physical laws, they can come back as they wish" (which makes a lot more sense than the reason he gave us, and actually its perfectly acceptable as a reason) I still don't think it works. THe scene doesn't look natural, it isn't consistant, it shows the face of an Anakin that turned to the darkside and it cheapens a fine actor's (Shaw) role in the movie. I don't think it adds anything because I don't think we need that kind of visual connection.
     
  7. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003


    :)







    - TOSCHISTATION
     
  8. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    I agree Darth-Stryphe.
     
  9. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    The Shaw version shows the face of an Anakin that has been consumed by the Dark Side for many years and has done much worse than what the Hayden version has done despite the fact that he gives up the Dark Side at the end of his life.

    The crimes committed by Shaw's Anakin is no different than what Hayden's Anakin has done.
     
  10. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    The Shaw version shows the face of an Anakin that has been consumed by the Dark Side for many years and has done much worse than what the Hayden version has done despite the fact that he gives up the Dark Side at the end of his life.

    The crimes committed by Shaw's Anakin is no different than what Hayden's Anakin has done.


    Except that Shaw's Anakin has learned from those mistakes and has redeemed himself. He suffered through that pain, and he made the right decision in the end.
     
  11. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    You've hit the nail on the head there Luver. Anakin committed terrible acts as both a younger and older man. The key point is that old Anakin (Shaw persona) saw the light and redeemed himself, whereas young Anakin never did.
     
  12. DARTHCLANDESTINE

    DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 17, 2005
    The prob. I have with this is that the Shaw Anakin told Luke "you were right about me". Exactly what did he mean by that? In my interpretation, he was talking about what Luke told him "there is STILL good in you". That "good" Anakin was when he was a young Jedi Knight and when that name meant something to him, or was it not? :confused:
     
  13. Sanctuary_Moon

    Sanctuary_Moon Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 20, 2004
    Luke isn't asking Vader to think back to when he was good. That speck of good which Luke felt was there all along. Even when Vader was committing monstrous acts, there was a little piece of Anakin left - buried deep down. Only Luke believed this.

    Lucas's attempts to trample over this vitally important point by including Hayden in ROTJ and saying that Anakin "died" in ROTS can't change this. I firmly believe that George actually forgot his own story in an attempt to create this crude visual link between the OT and PT.
     
  14. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    Good and bad are there all along in Anakin, just as in each of us. Anakin CHOSE the dark side while he was still young, still in the 'image' of Hayden. He commited a number of atrocities in that 'form'. He chose to serve the emporer in that 'form'. He then donned the suit and over time grew older, looking like Shaw in the end, all the whle continuing on that path of the dark side. But in the end, he finally chooses the right thing, to save his son, to defy the emporer, as an old man, in the 'form' of Shaw. HC/young Anakin isn't the image of 'good Anakin', it's the image of Ankain, plain and simple, before he had to don the suit, encompassing both good and bad.

    So he does mean that Luke was right about there still being good in him. But that doesn't mean that that 'good' has HC's face.
     
  15. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Yes, there was good and bad in Anakin throughout. This is the main problem with the new ending - it sends the misinformation that Anakin was good, then turned bad, then returned to his previously good self. The key issues here are self-realisation and the following redemption, which occurred only in the older Anakin. The man who Anakin has become at the end of ROTJ has never existed before in terms of his state of mind, which is why it's entirely appropriate that the character at that point has a new face, the face of himself at the time of his self realisation and redemption.
     
  16. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    That "good" Anakin was when he was a young Jedi Knight and when that name meant something to him, or was it not?

    The answer is in the tense, and also in what Obi-wan said to Luke.

    In the tense: Luke said "is", not "was". This speaks of who Vader really is in the present sense. He is someone actively in possession of finer, nobler qualities. The question (which ROTJ answers) then becomes how to bring out those qualities.

    Obi-wan's interaction: Obi-wan and Luke disagreed about how to handle Vader. Obi-wan was disappointed in Luke's unwillingness to kill Vader if it came to that. Obi-wan viewed him as "more machine than man" in reply to the "there is still good in him". However, Obi-wan never disputed that Anakin had been good. He leaves that in the past tense, though, in disagreement with Luke's use in the present tense. Anakin, in the end, says it was Luke who was right.
     
  17. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    It seems that way doesn't it? How could Anakin be redeemed if he had died in ROTS? How could Luke connect to him, when he wasn't even there?

    Luke saw the man under the mask. *That* was the Anakin Luke saw, and that is the Anakin Luke knew existed deep down. Not a Jedi Knight who made the very mistake of turning to the Dark Side.
     
  18. DARTHCLANDESTINE

    DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 17, 2005
    Luke saw the man under the mask. *That* was the Anakin Luke saw, and that is the Anakin Luke knew existed deep down

    But he didn't need to see him to know that. Right? :-B
     
  19. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    No of course not. But havig him actually see the older Anakin means something. That the Shaw Anakin was the Anakin Luke saw, and connected to. Not the Hayden one. Having him look upon his father's face before he dies just increases the impact felt when you see that same Anakin standing there with Obi-Wan and Yoda.
     
  20. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    Anakin is Anakin the entire time. The good in him has nothing to do with what he looks like, it has to do with his soul and conscience. Those have been there all along.
     
  21. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    That's true, but if he's going to appear as a force ghost at the end, the image should represent what's happened to the character as logically and meaningfully as possible.
     
  22. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    And I'm hoping you think the logical and meaningful representation is Shaw, Duckie?
     
  23. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Indeed I do, Luver. Indeed I do.
     
  24. anakin_luver

    anakin_luver Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jul 26, 2005
    Well that's good to hear!
     
  25. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    That's precisely the point I'm making. That's Anakin under the suit and and mask, that's Anakin speaking to Luke, telling him he was right. That's Anakin who threw the Emporer down the shaft. And at that point, Shaw, nt Hayden, is what Anakin looks like.
     
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