Vader's Sacrifice - an act of love, not prophesy

I recall reading awhile back a number of people not liking Dark Empire (especially in light of the Prophesy), because the Emperor's return nullifies Vader's sacrifice. I just have to say something to that. Vader did not sacrifice himself to bring balance to the Force, to kill the Emperor, or to fullfil some anciet Jedi prophecy. He sacrificed himself to save the life of his son. So even if the Emperor landed safely at the bottom of the shaft, the fact that Luke escaped alive means that Vader's sacrifice was not in vain.

Another thing I find interesting. After all the condemning of personal relationships we see in the prequal trilogy, how they can lead to the Dark Side and therefore must be shunned (Anakin is not even allowed to go see his mother in the ten years he is training as a Jedi, while other Jedi children are taken from them at such an early age they probably don't even remember them), it is just such a personal relationship that brings Vader back. That love of family that the Old Jedi Order so oppossed is what in truth saved Vader from the Dark Side, and in fact toppled the Empire, not Luke's Jedi training or Yoda and Obi-Wan's Jedi teachings (to either Luke or Anakin).

Yoda said that once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Yet we have an number of examples where that is not the case. First and foremost, Vader turning from the Dark Side for love of his son. Another, Luke turning from the Dark Side for love of sister. I think the Old Jedi Order missed something in their equation. Their Vulcan-like view of life and the Force leaves no room for emotion, just the Force. Those that then take the road of the Dark Side, once they embrace hate, have no way of returning, because they were taught at an early age to shun love.

 

This looks like a great thread!

I like the point about Vader's sacrifice not being in vain, however DE was a franchise that cheapened ROTJ. It is possible that the 'balance' referred to the relative power of each side and not a complete victory one way or the other. The rest of EU has numerous examples of dark Jedi so I don't think elimination was what the prophecy referred to. (interestingly enough 10,000 Jedi vs. 2 Sith is an imbalance!)

Yes good point but the personal relationships started the whole mess in the first place. Ob-Wan's pledge to his master being the first. If Anakin hadn't been trained would the prophecy have been realised. As loath as I am to say it the new Potter book makes a good point about self fulfilling prophecies. My particular objection to the above comes from my belief that the force exists independently of light/dark and is shaped by the user into either side.

Well Vader murdered an old man to save his son and redeem himself. That?s pretty dark. This is why I think that motive is all important in determining dark/ lightside actions.

 

I have to agree with you both.

killing Ben was dark... though in ANH we saw Vader as cruel Sith. in TESB he knew he had a son, and his personal relationship shaped him... Palpatine needed Xizor as rival for vader to keep him busy so that Vader didn´t do what he wasn´t intended to do by palpatine. and vader even preferred Luke over Palpatine.. as seen clearly when he tried to seduce him. Luke withstood him.. and thus Vader changed. in SOTE we see him destroying Xizor to save his son and friends. the emperor punished him for that. but Vader in the end in ROTJ realized the truth and returned to the light and his family out of love.

and about the Potentiumish, motives and no dark/light side but user decides stuff, I agree. more later about that

 

nice explination

 

love and compassion have always been viewed as positive things in the star wars universe. there is nothing inherenly wrong with anakin's love for padme, nor with her love for him. they both have commitments that they are unwilling to sacrifice for each other, however, and that is where the problems begin. this is why attachment is th enemy. attachment is selfishness, it is covetousness, it is jealousy. love is self-sacrificing, love is empathetic, it is counter to all of the things that attachment brings to it. Vader's sacrifice is a true act of love because it is a selfless act. it is also his redemption and the fulfillment of the prophecy, in addition to that, but it was a selfless act of compassion first and foremost.

 

And this somehow excuses the attitude of the cold, heartless automaton Jedi? The only OR Jedi to rise above this was Qui-Gon without having to sustain a major failure and feel all his friends getting shot and sliced n diced. Qui-Gon=wise, noble. Yoda= arrogant little fool, takes years to remove walking stick from rectum Obi-Wan: Only speaks in lies.

It was all for love. If Vader had wound up hating his son, would he have cared if he lived or died? He doesn't even try to toss Palpy over ye old railing until after Luke starts screaming like a little girl.

And this stuff that Vader was redeemed is utter nonsense.

 

Anakin's motivation matters not ('cept for the fact his motivation was selfless). What matters is that he did fufill the prophecy by killing Palpatine.

 

Bingo.

 

Um... I've said it before, and I'll say it again; what matters is that Luke goes psycho, then calmly drops his lightsaber and walks away from the Dark Side...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I don't interpret the scene that way, red-shirted Engineer Ewok.

Vader only throws the nasty looking old man down the shaft when he is working at electrocuting his son to death.

 

GAW: Och!!

What you say is true, but he'd been planning to "throw him down" since before RotS, probably since before AotC...

The point isn't that he does so - it's that he realises beyond that that Jedi Dualism? is at least more complex than he thought...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I think that he was redeemed is pretty much given, there is no other explanation for why he would appear as a force ghost with Yoda and Obi-wan at the end of ROTJ otherwise, either Obi-wan or Yoda had to show him how to do it and I don't think either of them would try to bring back an evil spirit. Also if you read Truce at Bakura (I Think) Leia is spoken to by Vader/ Anakin and asked forgiveness.

There is alot more evidence throughout SW that Vader was redeemed by his son, but I can't think of any more from the top of my head.

 

i agree with you wholeheartedly on this. But Luke isn't the one who fulfills the prophecy, in the strictest Lucasian terms. So, that point is, here at least, irrelevant.

 

Basically, GAW I think you fail utterly to comprehend the idea that it's love of people we care about that allows us to love others. Vader recanted of his loyalty to the Emperor and embraced the way of the Jedi again.

It doesn't matter that it started as love of his son, he repented of all his evil.

Also, frankly, I think we need more soulless autons like the Jedi. Men who devote themselves to the good of humanity with no thought of personal gain are true altruists.

 

It was an act of love that fulfilled a prophecy.

 

A lot of true and fair comments here. I agree with most of them, personally. It's true that Vader is the one to fulfill the prophecy, Luke just nudged him in the right direction. I like the comment about how without Palpatine, the Jedi are allowed to come back again without influence. That's the balance I believe.

As to the Jedi's code. Remember that by the end of ROTS, they were getting self-righteous in some ways. Palpatine was right in that in some ways. They weren't necessarily looking out for the good of galaxy as much as they should or could have been. I think that it was by past examples they had created such codes as forbidden attachments. I think it is more the fact that it is forbidden that Anakin has the problem. Not that it would be wise to go case by case, but Anakin's love was true. He was willing to give up everything for one woman. Fantastic emotion there. But it was the fact that he couldn't even get worthwhile council because of his actions that he was left clouded.

I'm convinced that it was an act of love that proved the prophecy. Love made the balance of light and dark. Yoda had lived for 900 years. He'd have the wisdom and experience to have seen more than just Anakin make this mistake I would think. His apprentice, Dooku, left for other reasons. One would think that there is more to his history. Perhaps his stern warning to the dangers of attachments that he experienced the blunt end of making an attachment himself. Perhaps Yoda loved someone and it proved disasterous. Perhaps that is the connection that we can make that we never know of his species or homeworld. I think it wholy possible that the attachment Code had a personal affect on his life that in turn makes him so adament that they are to be avoided at all cost.