ST Vanity Fair's The Rise of Skywalker issue \/ What will it reveal? And so on

I don't know it's probably already been said, but I do like the image of them fighting on top of what looks like the Falcon.

 

The most frustrating the part of the “bad parents” narrative is that simply exists by default because there is no serious explanation for why Kylo is evil. We don’t know how he got that way and so we just assume it’s a reflection of his upbringing. I’m not convinced it was even JJ’s intention to write that story, but since he didn’t write anything for his origin, it’s the story that emerges.

 

I have a feeling that the "Kylo attacking the KoR" info is actually true.
Disney probably asked them to remove it and say it was wrong, but I'm a conspiracy theorist.

 

disagree han is a born and bred hustler its in his DNA, doesnt make him a bad guy or that he cant ever do the right thing. The biggest change in han as a character is not rather he is a hustler or not, its the fact that he went from only caring about himself and maybe chewie to caring about luke and leia. There is no doubt in my mind that if leia and luke had said in rotj forget all this lets escape on the falcon to the outer rim, that han wouldnt be the one piloting them away....

Its kind of the same argument I have about finn all the time. At no point and I mean at NO POINT in TFA did finn ever care about the resistance not when rescuing poe at the start, not when he tried to escape maz's castle and run away, to not when he straight up lied to leia, han, and the rest of the resistance about how to shut down the shield on skb. I guess bc its a funny moment with him being a janitor and saying we will use the force to han, that folks forget that he was a liar and his only real mission was to rescue rey, not to stop skb from destroying the rebels. In that way he mimics han from ANH. I believe han came back not because he believed in the rebels cause but to rescue the only people he cared about, the same as finn caring for rey

 

Fellow 1977 viewer here. And an Anakin fan. But at my age posting here I question whether or not I’ve grown up.

And only a Sith deals in absolutes.

The tl;dr isn’t as long as the VF article.

Unsuccessful parenting isn’t new to SW. Anakin had no father. Shmi, perhaps the most successful of SW parents, let Anakin go join an unsympathetic Jedi Order that doesn’t accept familial love. Anakin abuses his wife and she died of a broken heart. Owen and Beru, Bail and Breha protected and meant well by not letting Luke and Leia know their true identities. But it’s still an imperfect situation. Then Ben learns the hard way who his grandfather is. For 29 years he was kept in the dark about his evil grandfather and then his mother is humiliated for their dark secret being a public embarrassment and political scandal that led to her resignation in the midst of a constitutional crisis.

Even symbolic parents don’t do well in the GFFA. Anakin didn’t have a father. Qui-Gon died. Kenobi was too close in age and saw Anakin as a younger brother, despite Anakin telling Padme he saw Kenobi as a father. Kenobi turns his murderous younger brother/son into a quadriplegic amputee work 3rd and 4th degree burns and leaves him for dead. In steps Palpatine/Sidious, the new father, who may have had a role in his conception. That worked out well.

Kenobi lied to Luke, as did Yoda. Then, Vader and Palpatine invite Luke to a situation in which one of these 3 will die.

Han and Leia are no Palpatine or Vader. But where is there a parent in the GFFA that isn’t seriously flawed? Shmi, perhaps? Padme never had a chance.

Lucas and Spielberg grew up in the era of classical Hollywood with Disney being a big favorite, and no parents were like this in Old Disney. But their own experiences with their fathers influenced them. Lucas loved and hated his ultra conservative father who could be alternately loving and angry and didn’t support his dream of leaving home and wanting him to eventually take over the boring family business in BFE. Kenobi and Vader were the results of his parenting experience, yet after ANH, we learn Kenobi wasn’t perfectly good, nor Vader perfectly evil, something I-III, V, VI, and TCW fleshed out.

Tangentially related, Spielberg’s parents divorced and he lived with his mom. On Jaws, for which he was a hired hand, we have a good father who does his job and protects his children. In CE3K, the father quits his job and leaves his family. And in ET we have a single mom.

Well, with Lucas and Spielberg we get Henry Jones, Sr., the latter’s creation but approved by the former. He wasn’t too bad. But how was Henry Jones, Jr.’s relationship with Mutt Williams?

So, while no doubt you have most certainly grown up, Disney only did after Eisner took over. And in the ST we get a Disney film with a dysfunctional family that Lucas didn’t see in Disney movies when he was a kid growing up in a dysfunctional family. The Skywalkers have always been dysfunctional—even in ANH in 1977 as Luke never knew his father and for some reason lives with his aunt and uncle, not his widowed mother. And his uncle won’t let him leave home in BFE to pursue his dream, wanting him to stay and eventually take over the boring family business.

So Han and Leia not the perfect couple or parents and Luke not the perfect uncle and teacher is what we have in the ST? I can buy it. It’s not just a space opera, but as GL said about his vision of the ST after the sale to Disney, it’s a family soap opera of Vader’s grandkids, this Skywalker Saga.

Now Rey’s parents? Trash? Or Han and Leia’s? Or Luke and Mara’s (how do I wish). Maybe there is another, as we learned in 1983. Does Vader have grandkids? And if she is a Skywalker, how does Skywalker parent look for abandoning her?

 

I still think that it is the Jedi Temple Massacre. But if it was something earlier, perhaps Ben Solo wasn't an only child and he had a sibling that passed away.

Han is basically saying - "It's not your fault Leia or Luke's fault" when he says - To much Vader in him.

And Leia is saying "I thought Luke could help him with his Vader problems, but in retrospect that was the wrong thing to do. I should have had him stay here and helped him myself. Then the massacre never would have happened. That's when we really lost him. And because of that it's when I lost you Han."

Han's saying "You didn't lose me, we just both had to deal with it alone."

I think that's the big reveal for The Rise of Skywalker. We find out the motives behind Kylo Ren's turn to the dark side which lets us understand the reasons behind Luke, Han, and Leia's motivations in the ST. And it was planned that way from the start. We'll see.

Good point. Could be an accidental spoiler. The question is why would Kylo be attacking the Knights of Ren? Is it a fight over power? Does one side turn their back on the Dark Side and the other trying to stop them?

 

It's true that the conversation between Han and Leia heavily suggests that something happened BEFORE Ben was sent to Luke. That's why Han says what he says and then Leia says "THAT's why I wanted him trained with Luke".

But another sibling? I think that ship has sailed.

Would be interesting, though, if two of Luke's students had a child (Rey) and while the other KOR killed Rey's parents, Kylo, refusing to kill Rey, brought her to Jakuu and wiped her memory BUT did something to her so that she would have a connection (in case the time came for him to turn back OR wanting a way to turn back someday).

 

That's what I thought happened before TLJ was released. I thought Kylo Ren dropped Rey off on Jakku, and used the Force to block some of her memory. Kylo did this to hide her from Snoke either because he cared about her - like she was his apprentice, a relative, or the child of a close friend - or to stash her away until she was older and Kylo Ren was more powerful at which point he'd collect Rey, restore her memory, and train her as his apprentice so together they could overthrow Snoke. Kylo Ren implanted that "I'm waiting for my family" memory so Rey wouldn't leave Jakku, where she might get discovered or completely disappear.

I thought perhaps the Millenium Falcon was there in part because of Kylo Ren. And originally Kylo had planned to get her to Lor San Tekka, but circumstanced prevented it. The closest he could get was Unkar Plutt.

But I don't think that happened. If anything my hunch is the Force awoke in Rey because she was the best person on the right planet.

 

Han's bravado is just that. Bravado. I feel like the OT showed this rather well, but even beyond that, TFA, Solo and the comics have driven that point home rather well. Han cares desperately for those he loves. Chewie, Leia, Luke, Ben, Qi'ra. Han likes to present to the world that he doesn't care, but he most certainly does. He is good man and has shown that on many an occasion. If he wasn't the kind to stick around, he wouldn't have been around in Empire.

I thought TFA established pretty obviously that Han and Leia didn't know how to deal with Ben because of how strong he was in the Force. I don't want to imagine a Force temper tantrum with someone capable of blowing up a house if he didn't get his favorite dessert that night. Especially when someone like Snoke is trying to influence him.

 

@Legions of Lettow well written and thoughtful post. However, nearly all the examples you cite in the existing canon are seen on screen. These characters deserve better than throw away lines of dialogue trying to explain 180 character movement from what we have known and seen.

 

That could even be what Snoke used to brainwash Kylo Ren to his side. We really don't know why Ben fell to the Dark Side. His parents might not even know the real reason.

If Luke was involved in any "dysfunctional" family, it was Obi-Wan and Yoda who Owen was trying to protect them from. Owen just wanted Luke to have a regular life free from the burden of his family history. Obi-Wan and Yoda seemed to be training Luke for the singular purpose of killing Darth Vader and setting right the wrongs of the previous generation. That's a terrible thing to lay on someone. And to keep Luke free of emotion, and I guess to make things easier for Luke, they never would have told him Vader was his father.

Part of me does wonder if Obi-Wan and Yoda always planned for Vader to turn back into Anakin because of Luke, but felt the only way that would happen was if Luke came to the decision on his own. But there is nothing in the movies to back that up.

 

For me, when it comes to Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan, we are presented with this. Obi-Wan wanted his revenge, where as Yoda was giving Luke the tools to do what he thought was best. When Yoda was gone, Luke would be the last Jedi. It would be up to him what to do. Kind of shows how important it was that Yoda, not Ben, was the one who trained Luke.

 

mods plz put this thread out of its misery

 

Rey's has a sunrise, and Kylo's has a sunset...

 

The Rise of Skywalker // The Set of Skywalker

Episode IX being split into two films confirmed

 

None of that stuff even crossed anyone's minds? It was the primary reason Star Wars appealed to me. The look of it. The feeling of a galactic civilization that actually existed. For me, that's what distinguished Star Wars from other fantasy and sci-fi films and serials. It looked plausible. You don't speak for everyone, so stop talking like you do.

Everything in the VF story looked great to me. The costumes, locations, and aliens. The Aki-Aki, the orbak mounts, the KoR and Zorii Bliss look especially fantastic. On a visual level, it's already looking and feeling a lot more layered than TLJ and TFA.

 

Thank you for getting the exact conversation. This says Leia "lost" Han when she sent Ben away, not when Ben turned into Kylo. We see in Bloodline that they are living apart even before Ben turned. Something happened to make them decide to send Ben away. Something big (and "too much Vader" possibly since that's why Leia wanted him to go?), I would assume, if Han felt he had to leave. That something is the it they had to deal with (Han with flying, Leia with politics).
JJ didn't write the scene that way for no particular reason.

 

Will we learn in The Rise of Skywalker that Obi-Wan and Yoda both played more of an active role as Force Ghosts than we knew. That they did something to cloud some of Vader and Palpatine's abilities. Especially when it came to Palpatine being able to foresee the future. Maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan did to the Emperor what the Sith did to the Jedi in the Prequels distruting there ability to read the force, like how the entire Clone Army was hidden in the Force from the Jedi. Only Yoda kept it to hiding a few key details like Luke being on Endor, the Ewoks, and Vader's turn of heart?

These photos indicate Luke is back, so this could be the big Force Ghost movie where we get a much better understanding what power they poses. So far Obi-Wan a spirit mostly provided plot details from beyond the grave. In The Last Jedi, Yoda gave Luke a new lesson and inspired him to save the day. What else are they doing?

 

I think the idea works better for when Han says "We both" he's referring to him and Ben having to deal with it in their own way (essentially saying sending Ben away was the correct choice when Leia now doubted it) since Leia referred to Han and Ben as 'you both' seconds before in the preceding sentence. And then Leia in the final sentence is referring to her and Han as a new thought to say he wasn't alone in doing what needed to be done. Han using 'we both' as him and Leia would make Leia's last sentence redundant.

 

Or the fact that Kylo dominates the picture while Rey appears to support him?

 

With Han, I think it's clear that he does care about people, and always has. But that's one side of him, and his hustler side can't be pushed away for long. This is dealt with beautifully in Bloodline, where Leia acknowledges that Han needs his space; He's not a man who can be tied down for long. There's one neat scene where they make plans to cruise around the galaxy together, and they talk about how it would be a short but passionate time together, because sooner or later they'd need to be apart again.

 

That photo of Rey and Kylo dueling probably comes from a scene that takes place on the wreckage of the Death Star right?

 

Wow. That's interesting. So you're saying Ben and Han had a falling out that resulted in Han going off on his own and Ben training with Luke.

I'm just not reading it that way. I think Leia sees sending Ben Solo away as the moment when she lost any control in the situation. After that Ben was on his own, which resulted in his being lost. And then Leia sees that leading to her also losing Han.

Han's "We both" is referring to him and Leia. Leia is blaming herself for losing both Ben and Han. Han saying "We both had to deal with it in our own way." is telling Leia - it's not her fault. He doesn't blame her. She didn't lose Han like she lost Ben, he just had deal with it his own way. Let's look at the entire scene.


Han Solo : Listen to me, will you? I know every time you... Every time you look at me you're reminded of him.

Leia : You think I want to forget him? I want him back.

Han Solo : There's nothing more we could have done. There's too much Vader in him.

Leia : That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both.

Han Solo : We both had to deal with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever any good at.

Leia : We both did.

Han Solo : We lost our son. Forever.

Leia : No. It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side. But we can still save him. Me. You.

Han Solo : If Luke couldn't reach him, how could I?

Leia : Luke is a Jedi. You're his father. There is still light in him, I know it.