Saga Viewing order

The PT explains it as a power that the Jedi and Sith use. There's no need for exposition when you see it in full.

Why don't you let your son have his own experiences? Let him enjoy the films the way he wants to, rather than the way you force him to?

 

Yawn.

I've heard these, "arguments," before from you. Plenty of times. You'd think you'd get new material after they've long since been deconstructed.

Oh, and that last part with the link? That barely deserves a response, but here it goes. I think you should pay more attention to your own stuff instead of how others raise their kids. There's plenty of things I won't let my kids watch. Not because they're dangerous, but because their moronic and artistically valueless. Like Pokemon and it's ilk. That's not, "oppressing," a child, silly goose.

 

Really? Because I haven't seen much deconstruction. But feel free to dismiss my points. I'm sure other posters can read what I've written and make up their own minds regarding the validity of my "arguments," as you put it.

Appreciate the condescension there. But please, tell me again where I said it was oppressing? Or where I said that I got involved with how other people raised their children? I haven't. But you accused me of being a liar and making up a "fantasy" that people wouldn't let their children watch the PT. I provided evidence that this does occur. That it is not a fiction I made up.

But then, you don't seem to care much about evidence, now do you?

 

Shame that we can't have a thread comparing both trilogies that doesn't turn into a bashing thread with personal accusations, hateful remarks on one of the trilogies (each of them has a subforum if you don't like the other), sidetracked discussions about they way Lucas presents the film, both parties accusing the other for the same thing (is it impossible to consider that both sides could be a bit right and a bit wrong? are we so arrogant to think that our point of view is the only one?).

 

Technically, it is. You're deciding what your child should or shouldn't watch, because you don't like it. Its one thing if it has too much violence, but another because it has no artistic value. "Masters Of The Universe" and "Transformers" had no artistic value, but damn if I didn't have fun watching the cartoons, reading the comics and playing with the toys.

 

Well, because you can't decide what order you want to follow if you haven't ever watched the movies. Unless new viewers have to decide which order to follow depending on the DVD/Bluray covers, it's logical that a fan could give a suggestion about the best order. That's why this kind of threads are valid: it's a worthy discussion about the Saga as a whole (but they always end up becoming something else).

 

If you're going to show these films to someone they have to watch it in SOME order don't they? Perhaps to avoid claims to some kind of prejudice the only fair way is to hand the new viewer a set of unmarked discs and they have to choose them to watch in random order.

 

Obviously OT then PT.

Perfect

 

These threads. Doesn't it depend heavily on the person you're showing them to?

If we're using some generic-everyhuman-who-hasn't-seen-Star Wars, I'd show ANH and the OT first, because I think this generic-everyhuman-who-hasn't-seen-Star Wars is more likely to give up on TPM and AOTC and thus the PT than they are to give up on ANH and ESB and thus the OT.

 

Well, why should established fans give a suggestion? Aren't you smart enough to figure it out on your own, what you order you should watch it?

Why is that the only fair way? There's a reason Lucas put them in an order.

A bunch of women sat down to watch the Saga without having seen the films and almost no knowledge and they started with TPM.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/30-woman-watching-the-saga-for-the-first-time-reacts.50016854/

That's as "generic-everyhuman-who-hasn't-seen-Star Wars" as you can get.

 

I find this irrelevant.

First, I think it's just one 35 year old woman.

What does this have to do with where I would start someone? How does this one person's experience matter? How do we know they chose "correctly"? The person even said the starting order would not matter. Is your example supposed to be indicative of anything other than one random example?

You realize the point of me saying "generic-everyhuman-who-hasn't-seen-Star Wars" is that there is no such person?

What order would I show "them"? I would analyze the person and try to guess what would be best for them, but it would just be a guess that, even if based on sound logic, could easily be utterly wrong anyway.

That's my point, this exercise is trivial speculation, entirely subjective and the "correct answer" is unknowable. You can only watch the saga in one order first and, once watched, there is no way to know if another order would have been a better choice.

 

Doesn't that seem a bit needlessly complicated, though?

I mean, most kids will understand if you explain to them that the OT was made first but the events of the PT happened before. Then you ask them which they'd prefer. Tell them that most people have seen the OT first because they were the first movies made, but that the story starts in TPM and finishes by ROTJ. I think most kids would be able to grasp the concept.

When you get into complete newbies who are trying to watch the films on their own, though, they're probably going to start with TPM just because it is labeled Episode I. I don't think many people (especially casual viewers) look at the production date of films so I would imagine that you'll get more PT-OT viewers for that group.

 

Why ask the person what they prefer, since ITT apparently it's our choice and not theirs?

This exercise is so stupid.

 

It was just an idea for the OP to take into account. The OP wanted to show the Saga to her six-year-old son and was leaning towards showing the OT first but wanted our opinions. Well, I was proposing an alternative option in that she could let her son decide whether he wants to see it the way his mother did (OT then PT, I think) or if he'd rather watch the story play out chronologically (PT then OT). I think even a six year old would be able to understand the difference if it is explained to him simply.

 

I see, there's nothing wrong with adding another option.

Just to continue this nonsense, I don't agree that "a six year old", because they're so easy to pin down, would be able to understand.

My mom is 51 and is utterly baffled by Star Wars. I don't think she even understands the concept of a prequel. Every time the PT is on in the background she's like "Is that Luke?", "what do you mean Luke hasn't been born?", "so who is that?", etc, etc, etc. Seriously, she has no clue what's going on.

Then again, despite the thousands of times the OT was watched in my house growing up, she never actually sat and watched it with us, so she doesn't even understand the OT, much less the PT. Last time ANH was on, she was like "is that Leia's dad?" when she hugged that one guy on Yavin in ANH. The usual questions are "does Luke know?", "does Leia know?", blah blah blah. I think "knowing" the most general things about the OT, like Darth Vader being Luke's dad, and Luke and Leia being siblings, has actually made it more confusing for her. Instead of just watching and finding out, she tries to figure it all out at once.

See what I mean about people being different? (rhetoric, not aimed at anyone)

This "how to introduce Star Wars to people" debate....it's so stupid. The person will either watch the movies or they won't. They'll either like them or they won't. The result is ultimately trivial anyway.

Who cares if someone likes Star Wars? What a tiny, insignificant part of life.

 

And my point is that this person chose to watch it on their own, without someone telling them to watch it this way or that way. That is the correct way to go. Anything else is just your personal opinion and not entirely necessary to someone's enjoyment. That example is to illustrate that someone can watch the Saga with a clean slate, as it were, and still enjoy it PT to OT. That's why Lucas said that one generation can see it one way and another will see it differently and it will work either way.

There's the problem right there. She's never sat down to watch the films with an undivided attention. That would confuse anyone.

 

Really?

 

Um, no….what? Huh? Which part?[/quote]
You implying that Pietts Hatt is a troll. I'm just saying, I don't think you should be making that accusation.

 

In fairness to Yanksfan, I don't think she was trying to imply that I'm a troll. I think she's just frustrated that I often contrast fandom attitudes towards Padmé and Anakin against Han and Leia. The point of my original comparison was simply that fans often make a much much bigger deal out of the bad things that Anakin has done compared to things that Han has done and I would attribute part of this to be due to the fact that Anakin eventually becomes Darth Vader while Han grows into the hero mold. I think it was just a miscommunication on my part where she didn't see the relevance of why I was bringing up Han and Leia.

But thank you for defending me because I wasn't trying to troll. I am just immensely frustrated by fan responses to some elements of the films at times because I find the responses to be inconsistent.

 

I just thought you were being unfairly criticized

 

The story is structured to be experienced non-linearly. The PT assumes that the viewer has already seen the OT. It introduces the Jedi with only one line in the opening crawl to explain them, and the Force with no explanation at all, because both were already explained in the OT. The PT actually adds to that pre-existing explanation by throwing midichlorians into the mix. They're never mentioned in the OT, so finding out what midichlorians are before you even know what the Force is makes no sense.

Luke's father, Yoda's identity, Luke and Leia's relationship, and the Emperor's true power are clearly presented as plot twists or unexpected developments. If the viewer was meant to know those things before they're revealed in the OT, the story wouldn't be structured to keep them a secret. The PT doesn't offer any twists to replace these, or at least none that would be spoiled by watching the OT first. Palpatine's double identity isn't even treated like a real mystery; there's no moment of revelation, he just says "oh btw I'm also Sidious." Watching the PT first takes all the surprises out of the series, and while being surprised was never integral to the story, it did make it a lot more fun.

More important than the surprises, though, is the overarching story structure. Obi-Wan introduces the basic concept of the Force in ANH, Yoda elaborates on it and explains the difference between the light side and dark side in ESB, Palpatine reveals the true power of the dark side in ROTJ, Qui-Gon further expands on how the Jedi are able to know the will of the Force in TPM, and in ROTS Palpatine reveals the ultimate application of the Force: the ability to create life. It's a process of gradually expanding revelation and explanation. Seeing Palpatine shoot lightning out of his hands for the first time in ROTJ is a big moment because we've never seen the Force used in such a way before; mostly we've just seen basic uses of telepathy and telekinesis. In AOTC, Dooku just casts it out like it's nothing. There's no moment of awe; it happens too abruptly, there's no buildup to it, and then immediately afterward Obi-Wan blocks it with his lightsaber without breaking a sweat. This isn't a problem if you've already seen ROTJ, but if you're watching in chronological order, nothing happens that you haven't see before, and you know that Luke could just pick up his lightsaber and deflect it. Palpatine's slow, deliberate speech and the sudden dramatic swell of music indicate a buildup to something revelatory: this seemingly weak and frail old man can conjure lightning from his fingertips. It's like a dark mirror to the Yoda reveal in ESB. But if you've already seen the prequels, you already know how powerful the Emperor is and that that small green frog creature is a Jedi Master.

The PT builds on the foundation laid by the OT: Force powers get more extensive, lightsaber battles get flashier and more intense, alien designs get more elaborate, lightsabers get more varied, the lines of morality get murkier, even the scale of the story gets bigger and more encompassing. Watching the PT first, you go from these huge CGI space battles and galactic politics and all these exotic worlds and aliens to these small claustrophobic sets and very slow, very talky lightsaber duels and stop-motion and aliens that just look like people wearing Halloween masks and a story where all you need to know about morality is that the Empire is evil and the Rebels are good, because it's all about Luke's hero's journey and galactic politics barely come into play at all. It's a reduction of scale instead of an escalation.

A prequel is just a sequel that takes place chronologically before the previous story but is told after it. It relies on the viewer's familiarity with that first story to contextualize itself. X-Men Origins: Wolverine takes place before the other X-Men movies, but a major part of the first two films is the mystery surrounding Wolverine's history and amnesia, which becomes completely pointless if you've already seen Origins. Clearly it wasn't made to be watched first. Neither was The Magician's Nephew meant to be read before The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, because the latter was written to introduce readers to Narnia for the first time, while the former assumes you are already familiar with it (and says so directly in the text). The fact that Lucas and C. S. Lewis both later endorsed chronological order over publication order for their respective series doesn't change the fact that the stories themselves weren't written with that experience in mind.

 

^ The lack of any exposition or introduction in Episode 1 is a motif that Lucas borrowed from the Sci-Fi serials that inspired and influenced the Saga and not an indicator of the way in which the films should be viewed.

 

Nah, I wasn't implying that at all. I was merely referring to a long history PiettsHat and I have of exhaustively debating that particular topic. *hands up in surrender, said like Han* "She's an old friend of mine…"