Saga Viewing order

Oh. My mistake, sorry about that.

Also I love posting that Gandalf meme lol

 

Yep. He did the same thing when he made ANH ... first.

 

No, we hear Qui-Gon Jinn talking about "the living force", "bringing balance to the Force", and how midi-cholorians tell us about The Force. No where is it explained that the Force is a Jedi's power. We're shown that they can move stuff with their minds, but to my knowledge, never in the film is it ever explained that this is the Force. So, someone who watches Episode I first would have no clue what the Force is other than what these vague sentences tells us.

Now, here we have a plot element where Qui-Gon wants to take Anakin under his wing. Cool. Since Anakin is a kid who has only heard of legends about the Jedi, he probably doesn't know how they can move stuff around or have super awesome senses. Or at the least, he's probably curious as to what exactly Qui-Gon thinks he is supposed to be balancing some time in the future. That scene where Qui-Gon explains to Anakin what midi-chlorians are could have also been used to explain what The Force is. It wouldn't add too much to the running time, it would be a nice nod to the scene in Episode IV (where Qui-Gon's apprentice does the same thing for Anakin's son), and it would make the idea that Episode I is the start of the saga more believable.

That sounds more like a cop out. I get that reasoning like that works for Star Wars' "used universe" feel, but even that relies on some kind of familiarity to real-world things. I think I remember reading in "The Making of Star Wars" that the Tusken Raiders were meant to be similar to native Indian clans. They were familiar, but also strange. Same goes for the Jawas; they were junk merchants. We see that they ride in this big sandcrawler that's filled with a bunch of dirty droids and scrap metal, and we see them sell this merchandise to customers. The concept of midgets with glowing eyes and brown hoods is foreign, but the idea of traveling merchants isn't.

Jabba is a gangster, who employs bounty hunters. Han is a smuggler. The bad guys are part of the Empire and their military. There are farmers (the youngest one has aspirations to do greater things, like any youth.) There's a spaceport (like an airport.) There's a bar in that space port. All of these things have real-world grounding. It's just twisted and presented in the context of a space adventure film.

But The Force is so abstract and out of this world, that without some point of reference to the real world, some kind of brief explanation is needed so that the audience's suspension of disbelief isn't ruined.

youtube.com/watch?v=CfBhi6qqFLA#t=08m07s

Episode IV: We have Obi-Wan explain what The Force is. Up until now, we see no evidence or reference to this Force. It's a strange to us as it is to Luke (the protagonist. The everyman character whom we can relate to.) As an audience, we feel skeptical. We feel like Admiral Motti in the next scene. "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's way's, Lord Vader." We share Motti's doubt in this absurd idea. Which is why it's so shocking when Motti starts to choke, seemingly without explanation. But then we see that Vader has his hand extended out, as if in a choking gesture. "I find your lack of faith disturbing." Vader is not only telling that to Motti, but to the audience. This is the first time we see an on-screen application of The Force. Since we have it explained, and since we know Vader used the Force, it instantly clicks in our heads that Vader is using the Force. The Force is a real thing.
Jump to Mos Eisley. Luke, Obi-Wan, and the droids are in trouble. They've been stopped by an imperial soldier, questioning them about their droids. But then we get a close up of Obi-Wan moving his hand, saying "You don't need to see his identification." The soldier repeats Obi-Wan's words, without argument. When Luke seems confused as to what happened, Obi-Wan replied "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded." So far, we know what 1.) the Force can influence things in the physical world (like a neck), and 2.) it can affect people's minds.
Moving on to the Millennium Falcon scene, some of the audience still might feel some skepticism. That this is all silly. These feelings are expressed through Han, who laughs at Luke's failed attempt to block the training droid's shots. When Luke is finally able to do it (while blinded by the helmet's blast shield), Han brushes it off as "luck."
The pivotal moment for the entire film, is when Luke is in the Death Star's trench. When Red Leader tried to launch his proton torpedo, he was using the targeting computer. He failed. Luke almost used the targeting computer as well, but Obi-Wan speaks in his head; "use the Force. Let go." It is at this important moment, the moment the whole film was building up to, where Luke gives his full faith in the Force. Regardless of what little skepticism of the Force remained in the audience, they are forced to play along if they want their hero to succeed. The film is at its climax, the audience is at the edge of their seat, Luke takes the shot, and IT GOES IN! HOLY CRAP IT ACTUALLY WORKED! OH MY GOODNESS THE FORCE IS REAL! LUKE USED THE FORCE AND IT WORKED!

"And remember; the Force will be with you. Always." The whole film was structured perfectly to build up to that line. Now we, as an audience, accept that there does exist an all powerful energy field in this film universe. No more exposition is needed, since the entire film was about making us believe that the Force is real.

Episode I (the Saga's alleged beginning): Qui-Gon says some expository dialogue about some "living Force" without actually explaining what that means, and Obi-Wan pushes a few battle droids. Qui-Gon also uses a mind trick on Boss Nass, but since we don't know that the Force can influence the mind (or even what the Force is), the audience won't understand what's happening. There's no "wow Master Qui-Gon, how did you do that?" moment from Obi-Wan which could explain what happened either. When in the planet core, and Jar Jar asks "where a weesa goin?"*, Qui-Gon replies "the Force will guide us." Except we don't know what the Force is. Qui-Gon says that Anakin is powerful with the Force and it's implied that he's able to podrace so well because of his connection with the Force. Except we don't know what the Force is. Qui-Gon then insists to the Jedi Council that Anakin is the one who will bring balance to the Force. Except we don't know what the Force is (or what it means to "bring balance" to it.) Qui-Gon then explains to Anakin that midi-chlorians allows us to know the will of the Force. Except we don't know what the Force is. Oh, and Darth Maul moves that thing with his mind. youtube.com/watch?v=Oh4l39Lo194#t=00m40s

There's no structure or logic to anything. We have Anakin blowing up the droid control center, like Luke blowing up the Death Star, but without any of the thematic significance that the latter scene had. Anakin doesn't put his full trust in the Force like Luke did. He just shoots at things and accidentally saves the day. And this is supposed to be the introduction to this strange new universe for someone new to the series? A series where the Force (and bringing balance to it) plays such a huge part in the story?

Edit: I hope that this post is cohesive enough for others to not be overwhelmed by my wall of text. :/

 

Insecurity? I don't know where you got that from, I was only asking Amiga_500_User to give a proper argument rather than just provide statements with no basis. Most people do enjoy the PT just fine, and I was feeling annoyed that someone would say something is 'awful' and 'destroys so much about Star Wars' without any evidence. I'm not trying to ascertain any 'security'. If someone else doesn't like a film I like, so be it. But they shouldn't go around calling it terrible without giving a reason why. That's when you cross the border between constructive criticism and hating.

 

It is explained. Observe.

QUI-GON: "He has special powers."
SHMI; "Yes…"
QUI-GON: "He can see things before they happen. That’s why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait."
SHMI: "He deserves better than a slave’s life."
QUI-GON: "The Force is unusually strong with him, that much is clear."

The film demonstrates that Qui-gon and Obi-wan have special powers up to that point and that includes incredible reflexes, something only a Jedi can do. He links it to the Force.

There's the Council meeting.



OBI-WAN: "What was it?"
QUI-GON: "I don’t know… but he was well trained in the Jedi arts."

Qui-gon refers to the Jedi Arts, which means that it is a set of skills which is connected to the Force. Especially since no one else uses Lightsabers except the Sith. As I said, it isn't explained as an energy field, but it is explained.

 

I have a 7 month old daughter. Hopefully by the time Episode IX comes out she will be old enough to view the saga and understand what is going on, or at least shortly after IX is out on home video. I will be showing them to her the only way its all meant to be seen.....1-9.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

Ok, sure. It's indirectly explained in a way that could be easily missed or misunderstood by someone new to the series. Again, a brief bit of exposition would have been nice.

Sure, there's exposition about the living Force and communicating with the Force, but never about what the Force actually *is.*

 

Well, I explained it earlier in this thread and gave one example AND I did apologize for using the term "awful", so there you go. The funny thing is, PT lovers don't seem to be too open to constructive criticism. And by the way, I did also explain earlier in this thread that the least thing I wanted is to "hate" on the PT. There, I said it again.

 

I think you underestimate viewers. TPM was my first Star Wars film and I wasn't confused over the nature of the Jedi or their abilities. In general, it's pretty intuitive and Qui-Gon provides a good bit of exposition. The film also does a very good job of showing these powers and demonstrating Jedi abilities.

The only real difference between the TPM explanation of the Force and ANH is that the words "energy field" are never utilized. But Qui-Gon's explanation to Anakin, along with earlier conversations with Shmi and Obi-Wan, make it pretty clear.

 

Let's break it down.

BEN: "Well, the Force is what gives the Jedi his power."

Covered in Obi-wan and Qui-gon using it, along with Maul and Anakin.

BEN: "It's an energy field created by all living things."

Sure, that's not mentioned. But its a given that it is a mystical power that only Jedi and Sith have.

BEN: "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded."

Demonstrated when Qui-gon uses it on Boss Nass and when it fails on Watto, who says that it doesn't work on him.

BEN: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force."

Qui-gon and Obi-wan both sense something in TPM.

BEN: "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."

LUKE: "You mean it controls your actions?"

BEN: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

When the Jedi block blaster bolts and when Qui-gon tells Anakin what to do about the race.

 

1.) The audience is left to guess what gives Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan their power. It's not explained until very late in the film (and again, it's done indirectly), unlike in Episode IV where it's explained almost right off the bat, before the Force is properly demonstrated. See my earlier post where I explain how the use of the Force evolves with the progression of Episode IV.

2.) (This is also kind of in reply to PiettsHat) The important thing about the Force isn't just that it gives Jedi and Sith power; it's that it's what keeps the entire galaxy together. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. The Jedi and Sith are knowledgeable enough about the workings of the Force to be able to manipulate it, but the Force shouldn't simply be treated as "what gives people superpowers" when it's so much more than that. Obi-Wan tells Luke to turn off his targeting computer and trust his instincts, so that he can destroy the big bad machine. Even Vader tells Admiral Motti "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." To paraphrase what Mark Hamill said in a documentary about TESB's special-effects (found on the third Bonus Disk of the BD set), Star Wars used advanced movie making technology to tell a story about the potential dangers of technology, and how people need something greater and all encompassing (like morals/philosophical principles, religious or otherwise) in order to better judge how to deal with life's complications (ie to not be filled with hate and want to blow up planets just because.) It applies classic fairy tale fantasy principles to a "futuristic" sci-fi setting.

The Force isn't just why the Jedi act like they've activated God Mode in a video game.

3.) I actually only very recently realized that Qui-Gon used a mind trick on Boss Nass. The way the scene was shot doesn't give Qui-Gon's gesture any emphasis (unlike the scene in ANH, or even a similar scene in TPM where Qui-Gon uses the Force to manipulate Watto's dice.) And there's not even a scene afterward where a curious Obi-Wan asks how Qui-Gon did that. This could have also been a cute character development moment for Obi-Wan, showing him when he's still learning the ropes about being a Jedi, and being fascinated with this odd trick that his master used. So, when watching the Saga from I to VI, when we get to that scene in ANH, we see how much Obi-Wan has become a Master of the Force, where he's now impressing others by doing what he was once so impressed by. (In other words, make Obi-Wan the protagonist, instead of an extended cameo where he does almost nothing. youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI#t=02m11s )

4.) At that point, at the very beginning of the film, we're not given a reason as to why they sense something until after the fact. We know nothing about the Trade Federation's ulterior motive or plans to kill Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan until after that scene. In ANH, we see Alderaann get blown up, and we see that this has affected Obi-Wan lightyears away. And we know that the Force allows him to do this because the Force was already explained to us, with a few demonstrations for proof (Vader's choke/Obi-Wan's mind trick), unlike in TPM where we're only given a few hints as to what the Force is almost halfway through the film, long after that scene ended.

5.) I don't really see the connection between the simple act of deflecting blaster bolts and Obi-Wan's wisdom, other than that deflecting the training droid's blaster bolts is used to demonstrate Obi-Wan's point. We see the style, but we're not told about the substance behind it.

The simple fact of the matter is that ANH was structured to explain the Force and make it believable, whereas in TPM just kind of throws things in and hopes that people can connect the dots from various parts of the film.

Now of course, it would be very dull if TPM recycled the plot of ANH and retread old ground when the storyteller probably just wants to tell something new. That's fine, as long as you don't try to say that TPM should be the starting point in the Saga when it wasn't designed for that (and if you're trying to avoid treading old ground, why have a scene that is just like the attack on the Death Star? Especially when you strip it of its thematic significance. Anakin's faith in the Force isn't tested, unlike Luke's.)

Is it cool to experiment and watch the films from I to VI and see how the story unfolds that way? Sure. I've done it. And I'll probably do it again before Episode VII comes out. But it should never be the recommended viewing order for newcomers.

I remember reading somewhere where Lucas said that he started with EPIV because he doesn't like writing beginnings and wanted to jump in the middle of the action. I think that attitude kind of spilled over into EPI, too. It's a chronological beginning, but it also builds on what was established before.

Edit: For the record, I don't want my tl;dr posts to be seen as antagonistic. Ultimately, it's just a matter of opinion. I just enjoy discussing this.

 

I actually agree with this. I think 12 is actually the perfect age to see the Saga.

 

Wrong.

Even though he produced them in a different order, Lucas himself has stated that I-VI is the official order in which the films should be viewed.

 

I agree. I started with the prequels and I didn't have any trouble understanding the Force or the Jedi. Granted, I watched the films a little older than most people (about 14) so that may have helped. But the idea that the PT should never be introduced before the OT is absurd. I love both parts of the story. The PT a bit more, granted, but that's more due to my disappointment in how Leia's character was handled in the OT (her lack of reaction to Alderaan, the romance with Han, and seemingly not caring that Vader is her father) and how the Rebellion plot line isn't as fleshed out as it could be. I adore Luke's story, though, and he's my second favorite character in the Saga (and horridly underrated by fans, in my opinion).

 

True, this was just one woman (though she actually watched it WITH a OT-PT friend , who was a bit older than her and had seen the whole Saga except ROTS, (and didn't like the other 2 prequels) - which he saw for the first time with her, and later said that's now his favorite of the Saga). When she was deciding which order, myself and the other aforementioned friend both gave her our arguments for the order, and then let her decide. She chose 1-6. But this is just the first one I know to write about it. I've done this same experiment six times with people of different ages and different genders. The results are almost identical, everyone loves the whole Saga. With the one exception of another 30 year old woman who actively disliked the OT.

 

There's no right / intended / official order in which to watch these films, regardless of what Lucas says now. It's purely a matter of preference. In 1977 he saw fit to drop us in the middle of this saga with very little exposition and the possibility of no subsequent story. If that was a perfectly fine place to start then, so it is now.

 

Also, we see the way he evolved the story naturally over the years. Better that way than just forcing the OT into the confines of the PT.

 

This statement is unequivocally false.

As the creator of the franchise, Lucas does have the authority to determine the official order in which the films are meant to be viewed - even though he is no longer connected directly to it - and he has done so.

At any rate, the concept of viewing the Saga in its entirety in any fashion but Chronologically will become completely untenable with the release of the ST.

 

I think you're overstretching that. Lucas does/did have the right to state intended order but he himself released them out of order and it is a matter of choice/preference for each viewer, Sir.

 

It's nothing more than Lucas's preference. No more official than Paul McCartney's favourite Beatles' album being officially the best one.

 

So its do as I say and not as I do?

Seems legit.

 

It doesn't matter how many times you say this; you will still be wrong.

Yes, Lucas released the films out of order, but has subsequently and unequivocally specified that they ought to be watched chronologically, particularly for first-time viewers. This is no different than Joss Whedon specifying the correct and official order in which to view Firefly or J. Michael Strazynski specifying the correct and official order in which to view Babylon 5 and Crusade and all associated material.

 

None of those people are in a position to unequivocally specify anything of the sort.

 

You are once again wrong.

J. Michael Strazynski is the creator of Babylon 5 and Crusade; Joss Whedon is the creator of Firefly; and George Lucas, obviously, is the creator of Star Wars. That fact automatically makes them the premiere authorities on the official and specific order in which their creations should be watched.

 

He also spoke about the importance of film preservation.
http://savestarwars.com/doasisay.html
It's like what Force Smuggler said; do as I say, not as I do.

OK, let me use another example besides TPM awkwardly explaining the Force compared to ANH;


It's pretty weird to have to watch two scenes that are so similar, within such close proximity (about a half hour) from each other.

In OT-PT order, it makes sense; they're like book ends. The OT began with Luke gazing at the stars, thinking that his destiny lies beyond his uncle's moisture farm. This is the start of Luke's journey, and by proxy, the journey of the audience in this exciting new world. The PT ends with the rise of the Galactic Empire and the fall of Anakin Skywalker, but with a small beam of hope from baby Luke. The binary sunset scene was iconic in the original Star Wars, and Lucas paid tribute to that scene for the final moment in what many believed was Star Wars' last hurrah on the big screen. As a bitter-sweet nostalgic moment, it does a perfect job at dropping the curtain, and ending the audience's experience with the story.

...But the scene on its own doesn't make sense. Owen never seemed to be the type who would gaze at the stars and crave excitement like Luke does in ANH. In fact, he seemed pretty dead set on staying on his farm, content with simply living a simple life. Ignoring that, we don't really learn anything about Owen as a character in Attack of the Clones, so we don't know what he feels when he's looking at the twin suns. The scene only makes sense as a book end, after seeing the other films; it's an ending, but also a new beginning.

So with PT-OT order, Episode III ends with a scene that doesn't have any real meaning for those who haven't seen the OT yet, and Episode IV has a scene within a half hour of the audience seeing the other scene, and any potential feeling that the EPIV scene might of had is diminished because the PT-OT audience already saw a scene just like it. It doesn't feel unique anymore. The familiarity with that other scene would distract from the underlying meaning of the scene. EPIII's ending was designed to cater to nostalgia for the original film; you can't be nostalgic for something you haven't experienced yet.

We're not talking about how the films should *always* be shown. We're talking about how we should introduce the films to our kids, friends, or relatives. Once the introduction happens, there's no need to worry about which order is the best.

Star Wars isn't like Breaking Bad where every episode follows directly after the other and skipping an episode means skipping a huge part of the story. Lucas started with Episode IV, showed the entire world Episode IV first, therefore it's possible to start with Episode IV.

Again, as an overall story, yeah, I-VI is the way to go. I'm not arguing that point. I'm not arguing that it's Lucas' preferred order. I'll watch it in that order in the weeks leading up to December 18th, 2015. I've already seen the films a bunch of times so it's no problem. But if I were to introduce the series to, say, my 10 year old cousin, I would show her the originals first, because I think ANH is a better jumping in point than TPM (no offence to anyone who jumped in with the PT. I grew up with the PT just as much as the OT. My arguments aren't based on some nostalgic attachment to the OT, but by my own observations from trying out Lucas' "preferred" order.)

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