* WARNING * Mature themes within -- Rainbow stickers and lightsabers, Challange issued!

Kit - I had read that post of Hai-Gan's when it was first posted. An extremely emotional story and yet I was more horrified by the mental rape by Barin's Master than the rape of Juli. It seemed more personal, more of a violation of self. It also explained a great deal about Barin Truthfinder (one of my favorite characters in that series).

I'd like to talk more about Jedi mind tricks and their relationship to rape. Obi-Wan seems to do this with great regularity and passes it off as just another one of the tricks of the trade. I would argue that it is also a violation of the inner self. Humorous on film, it's not quite so funny when examined more thoroughly. There is one series of stories that deal with this very issue (unfortunately, they are slash and not on this board). However, in a nutshell, one of the Padawans uses mind tricks to physically rape Bail Antilles repeatedly and makes him think that it is okay. It is only after a great deal of time that Bail realizes what is going on. Some time later, he sees Obi-Wan using a mind trick on someone else and goes into flashbacks, reacting with horror when Obi-Wan tries to keep him from harm by using a mind trick on Bail. There is a whole series of discussions about Jedi Force persuasion after that.

From Limits by Helens
"Taking away someone's free will is a violation, no matter how large or small the issue." I close my eyes. "Using the Force because you thought my life was at stake -- gods, I wish you hadn't done that to me, but yes, I can see the justification for that. But using the Force when someone annoys you, or people are simply trying to make their way in the universe and you don't happen to agree with them -- it's not ridiculous. It's terrifying. And realizing later what's happened to you -- gods, Ben. You have no idea."

So my question to you...is the Jedi Mind Trick a violation or not?

 

Any more takers? New topic will start soon and I assure you it will be just as dark...

 

wow, with the very, very loaded subject.

With the mind-trick thing, it's true that in most if not every case, using a mind trick is a huge violation. Now, I've always interpreted the whole weak-minded thing slightly differently. Which is that most people are weak minded about certain things- it's not just stupid people. But for instance a gate guard who's at the job because he wants the paycheck. He might be a little weak-minded about letting people through his gate, because honestly a coupla jedi getting past him's no skin off his back. But a mind trick wouldn't work if you were trying to get that same gate guard to shoot a loved one, because that's something that they care strongly about. So just my opinion, but I think it makes it a little easier that most of what a mind trick does is trivial in the eyes of the victim.

Consider episode two. chances are, half the girls in the bar that Ani 'tricked' into looking at him probably would have looked anyway. Now, it might still be a terrible violation, as a few of them may have consider acting on their impressions of him, and just thinking what they 'might have' done makes it feel aweful.

---
I think rape, like sex, needs to be handled very carefully, and authors have to find a way to convey mood without being graphic- not always easy. Even when it isn't graphic or violent rape, the feelings involved can make a reader's stomach turn when handled right (and turn in a different way when handled wrong).

I have a story, for instance, where a dark Jedi has ordered one of his apprentices (a guy) to kill his female apprentice, because she failed him so significantly that he wants her out of the picture. Until her failure, though, she was his favorite, and the male apprentice, who wants to prolong his newfound feelings of superiority and lord them over her, strikes a deal: she can stay alive, but only as his mistress. There's nothing violent at all about the exchange, but it's still very much rape she can either let him order her around and sleep with him repeatedly at his bidding, or she can die.

sticky situation. Even though the scene where this bargain is struck falls well below the board's high-water mark, if I were ever going to post it, I'd run it by the mods first. The very fact that it's nonconsensual makes it a hundred times more violent and graphic, even though it's neither.

 

On to other things now... I'll post my veiws on it later, but it the nutshell, I Believe in death with Dignaty but as an issue of Being a permanant end to a temporary problem is where I draw the line....


So here is some rope...

Suicide.

 

Catching up:

Rape: I think this topic should be approached from the angle of how terrorized the victim feels and how horribly violent the act itself is. It should not focus on sex, but on the power and domination of the act. Graphic detail isn't necessary to portray this.

I've seen several JA fics in which Obi-Wan got raped, but few that were any good. Most were written as hurt/comfort fics, and the reader did not get a feel for what Obi-Wan had really been through. The reader got the same feel for Obi-Wan's emotions that the reader would have gotten if Obi-Wan had been rejected by another Padawan for a date. It just didn't work.

Suicide: The best suicide fics focus on the desperate hopelessness the victim is feeling up to the point he/she commits the act. I personally don't like to read suicide fics, but written by an author who has been at that "jumping off point" where you feel you have no other option, and who can get these feelings down on paper for the reader, they can be very overwhelming.

I never saw any of the Jedi as suicidal because it was against their nature, but that's just me.

 

Suicide: The best suicide fics focus on the desperate hopelessness the victim is feeling up to the point he/she commits the act. I personally don't like to read suicide fics, but written by an author who has been at that "jumping off point" where you feel you have no other option, and who can get these feelings down on paper for the reader, they can be very overwhelming.


Very true, a_g.

I really can't talk about this now - but hopefully, I'll have something to add later.

 

Suicide shoudl be considered a last resort for most authors sure it's great for angst I've seen one done were Jaina commits suicide after Jag dies then Kyp finds out and does it also. That is in a tasteful manner almost in a romeo and juliet way though kinda different. Tastefully it is a great writing tool like rape and such but it should be used sparingly.

 

I thuink sucide can work well if done correctly. If you can get the loss and pain to the depth that it is needed then yes, it can be a great literary tool. On the otherhand, people also need that long slide into depression (concious or unconcious) before they take that step...and I think that is instrumental in showing the end result.

I have written one suicide piece. I don't know if I got the angst that many people go through, but I did what I have felt. If people want me to post it here as an example I will (or supply the web addy).

Kithera

 

If people want me to post it here as an example I will (or supply the web addy).

I've written one as well, in response to a writing exercise. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post here... what do you think, a_g? ?

 

I think yours would be an excellent one to post, Fate. You might want to show it to Kit' or Amsie first, but it's not above PG and I think it would be fine. It's also a good example of how to tastefully do a suicide scene while really bringing the reader into what the character is feeling.

Fate's story is on the July exercise section in the Workshop on Soul of the Jedi--she can tell you more. I was literally shaking and in tears when I was finished reading it. It's quite powerful.

 

I was literally shaking and in tears when I was finished reading it. It's quite powerful.

It was very strange for me. The exercise for the month was to "write a first-person, present tense narrative, involving an original character, describing this person's final minutes before the destruction of Alderaan."

The story was supposed to "end abruptly, preferably in mid-sentence, to emphasise the suddeness of the planetary explosion."

Kit', if it's okay with you, I'll go ahead and PM you the story.

 

Fate - I'd like to read it too. Would you PM it to me, please?

I'll have to catch up on this subject later.

 

It's OK to link it here guys, as long as it doesn't exceed the rating....

Warning though, SOTJ doesn't have the language restrictions of TFN so if you step outside of the relm of the story you might 'see' some things...

 

PM it to me.

I don't think I'll post mine again, I looked it over again and it isn't that good (needs a good reworking) so I'll decline for the minute.

Kithera

 

One of the things that I think authors need to be careful of is glamourizing issues of rape and suicide. All too often, I have read stories where non-consensual sexual contact, intercourse or not, is pushed into the 'oh well it's a slavery thing' or 'she's my wife so she can't say no'. No means no. If one partner is not willing, or is coerced or incapacitated by drugs or intoxicants, it is still non-consensual.

One thing I wonder about was how did Leia react to Hutts after being forced into the position of sexual servitude (again with or without actual intercourse) that was strongly hinted at in ROTJ with Jabba? We had already seen Oola fighting desperately to avoid being touched by him before he captures Leia. Now, personally, if I had been slobbered on by a giant slug, I would still be hiding in the shower with a 10 lb bag of salt at hand scrubbing off imaginary slime. Although she did get the immediate catharsis of strangling him to death with her chain, what were the long term effects of this experience? (Which seemed to have been primarily thrown in for teenage boys to see her in one of Madonna's outfits.)

Suicide. Again, another extremely serious subject that is often glamourized as 'Romeo and Juliet'. I have news for some of you. They weren't supposed to die. They never intended to die, but were caught in a tragic chain of events where they could not see any other way out using the framework of thought and attitude that was prevalent in their era.

Nowadays, grand tragic actions are not the ultimate in romantic excess; they are stupid. A person who attempts to commit suicide often is trying to 'show' the people around them how hurt and desperate they are, or to hurt the others by their actions. In general, (and all generalities are inherently incorrect for every given case) the person who actually does commit suicide has very different motives. Who is actually hurt by the suicide? The person who dies and moves on to whatever form of afterlife their beliefs allow? Or the people who have to remain behind and deal with the 'what could I have done differently to have prevented this?'

I have seen people commit suicide. A father, served with divorce papers, buys a gun, kills his two children, 3 and 5 yrs old, then his wife and himself, as the neighbors hear the gunshots and run over, calling the police, fearing a robbery. Who was hurt? Have you ever tried to explain to a 5 year old that his friend can not come over to play anymore because his Daddy shot him in the head last night? Those of us left behind were hurt. And two beautiful children had their future stolen. I have never looked at the supposedly romantic Romeo and Juliet 'Alas! I can not live without her' attitude the same way since.

As you all might guess, I'm not a big fan of anything that makes that type of suicide look like a viable option.

Now, issues are like those light globes they use in clubs; there are a whole lot of sides to every one, and it is very hard to tell up from down on a circle.

When do I find the use of suicide in a story a logical consideration? There was one story I read somewhere on these boards, (and I apologize for not remembering where) in which a young Jedi Knight, trapped with an initiate during the purges, having watched the painful deaths of his fellow Jedi, feeling Vader approach, knowing he could not escape and could not save the child, chose to release the two of them into the Force rather than surrendering to a known horrible fate. As with those with a fatal painful debilitating disease, the deaths were intended as a relief. Rather than to cause pain, they attempted to prevent it. No one should be forced to live in agony, knowing that there is no hope for any improvement. But authors using those themes should be careful to examine the choice of dignity and sacrifice without trivializing it.

And I do not even want to go into the motivations of terrorists, although I personally consider them to be the worst form of cowards. That issue always becomes focuse

 

Suicide.

As Kit' has said, when a good suicide is written, you feel the levels of emotion and depression leading up to it. In Romeo and Juliet you KNOW that she is going to wake up too late, and you KNOW that they are both going to kill themselves, but there is still that everlasting hope that she will move just a little bit sooner, or Romeo gets the letter. In fics I think you need to achieve that level, were you take it to the point where the character has no other options but death; and then you begin to think 'no, if only he had done that,' or 'come on someone has to walk in before he does it!' I think those are the most true to life suicide experiences in fics because like in really life you are always thinking what if this happened or what if that person had come home a little sooner. Suicide in fics should definitely not be the theme for all of an authors fics but I think it can be a powerful tool if used correctly.

p.s. I too have a suicide fic or two that I would not mind posting. Although one would need to be looked over by Kit' . It is posted here but in a bit older posts and I'm really don't want to take any chances in getting this closed.

 

Sure, Arriss!

I'll send it to you as well, Kit'.

What was/is ironic about my story is that the character was about to commit suicide, only to be murdered when Tarkin orders the planet blown up.

 

Here is mine. I've asked Fate to make hers a PM chapter (It's freaking fantastic - but it is borderline!). I've re-written parts of mine...beware the bad grammar and spelling.

***

FLYING LESSONS
By Kit



A woman stood poised on the edge of a building. Her hand lightly on a column, her bare feet resting on the verandah rail. She swayed gently with the wind as she stared at the city below her. Long black hair flickered and licked around her face. Its ends stung her face as it was driven by the wind. Below her the city spread out, its pinpricks of light mirroring the stars she couldn?t see.

She could remember another time she had stood here. A time when she had been a small girl, full of fear, pain and guilt for things that were not her fault. Petty things. She had wished she could fly away, now she wished for the same thing but this time her reasons were not petty. She shuddered as she thought about the little girl, if she had known what life would bring she would have stepped from the edge long ago.

Slowly, unconsciously, she edged closer to the drop.

Below her air cars hummed like so many strange birds. The woman sighed, she could step out, she could just vanish from this world of hurt. She thought of her Master and the way the woman still managed to control her despite the fact that she was no longer a Jedi. She thought of her Master?s disappointment at her, her scolding words. Her Master's promise to what she had called the fouled, dirty, unworthy little thing before her. Her promise her padawan, that she would never become a knight.

Only her fingertips brushed the column

An air-taxi screamed by, honking its horn as the driver noticed the strange woman standing on the ledge of the Jedi temple. So wrapped in despair was she that it didn?t disturb her. She didn?t even notice it.

She only had to take one step.

Something called her back, made her unable to take that last step. The thought of Barin and his return to the temple. The fact that they would even let the snivelling, dirty little cockroach back into the temple. The way that he had hurt her. Dirtied her. Broken her. Violated her mind, and spirit and body with one foul despicable act. For a moment anger flickered light a candle, only to be quenched by the consuming blackness of her despair.

Her hand left the support.

It would only take one moment. Only one and then she could be free of the pain and suffering life had caused her. Then she could fly. Maybe when she died things would be alright again ?

Maybe.

She leaned into the wind and for one brief moment it caught and outlined her slim figure. The curves of her waist and breast, the long black hair and eyes.

Maybe it was the others at the temple. The knights and padawans, the Order itself. The disapproving stare this final act of defiance, of misery would bring to Master Yoda?s face. The disapproving stares, she had been getting her entire life ? ever since her first master left the order.

No it wasn?t Master Yoda, nor Barin, nor her Master that kept the woman from flying. It was the first memory, the one of the little girl full of hurt and pain. Standing on the ledge as the wind snatched her tears. Then there had been another to catch her, but now he was gone. He would not save her again.

Juli sighed. Took one step.

And flew

 

That was powerful, Kit'.

 

Some beautiful deep stuff there Kit.

Thank you for sharing that!



OK.. next... (with thanks to Kit for sugessting it...)

Drug use... we know it's portrayl is limited in our fan fic but presented correctly (as anything) it can be a powerful topic...

I've heard that using the dark side has been likened to a drug... it becomes addictive after a while...

So there you have it... fire away!

 

The past few topics you guys have discussed have been a little off-limits to me, since I am technically a humor writer as a main genre and other genres get worked in there after.

But this one is the mature topic I focus on the most. My main OC is a recovering spice addict and alcoholic, and experiences withdrawal symptoms from the spice. His lavish ruling-family lifestyle with lots of money and apathetic parents led him to seek stimulation in "trendy" but dangerous drugs. These drugs led to great discourse with his family, the permanent loss of his arm, and the real kicker - causing enough of a distraction for his father that his uncle was able to assume the position of power.

I think taking an angle of "nothing good can come of doing any of this" and putting characters through the wringer as they try and repent for their bad past decisions is important when dealing with drug use. I may have had scenes where the characters using drugs appear to be having fun, but fun always comes with dire consequences. Kind of Puritanic of me, isn't it? I guess it's the morals I never had coming out in literary form.

Jae Angel

 

That was hauntingly beautiful, Kit'. It reminded me of this song, "Rain", by Dana Glover:

Rain, one tattered shoe on the ledge one in midair
She feels a whisperin' breeze rushing through her hair
She lifts her face to the sky in complete dispair
And cries aloud in the night with her very last prayer

Oh, whoa

Oh, God, there must be some mistake
But no one's ever loved me
But if there's something more in my life you can make
Here I am - won't you show me?

And then the clouds began to roll...
And the peace replaced her pain....
And on her face and in her soul...
She felt the drops of that same...same...

Rain

I'll PM my story to anyone who wants to read it. Just let me know.

 

Well, I've been afraid to venture into this thread as of yet because of all of the distinguished writers posting here. I almost feel that I am too young and too inexperienced to even be in here.



Anyway, about drug use, I think it is a horrible, horrible thing for someone to go through. I remember last year taking a sip of beer at a friend's house and my parents finding out. My father sat me down and didn't yell at me. He just stared at me for half an hour and then spoke. He quietly told me the story of his best friend, Patrick. How they'd grown up together and spent some of their best and worst days together. How when my dad had finally grown up and stopped smoking and drinking, Patrick had kept up the habit. My father would never let him drink around me and my sister, but Patrick was usually over at our house. Finally, my mom came home one day to find my father and Patrick sitting at the dining table, dead drunk. My sister, then two years old, was running around the house in a diaper. After that night, my father told Patrick he had to quit drinking or leave. Patrick couldn't give up the drink, so he left our lives. A year or so later, he called my father up, sobbing. He was talking about his father and how he felt horrible for all the things he'd done. My father knew he as drunka nd hurried over to his house. When he got there, it was too late. Rigor mortis had already set in. Patrick had committed suicide still holding the phone to his ear.

I never cried more in my life for my father than on that day. My father is prone to anger and yelling, but the only thing he could do was cry.

I may only be fourteen, but I know what drug abuse can do to a person and to all those around them. That is why I am very, very cautious about fictions dealing with drug abuse. There are limits to certain things, I believe.

I've said this to my friend when she was trying to get me to help her think up names for a homosexual couple she wanted to write about: they are not a novelty act. They are individuals with motivations and desires. They don't do things just to do them. They have a purpose, a reason. It's the same thing with drug abusers. They are not a novelty act. They are people with a serious problem. And they can't just come off of drug abuse with no repurcussions.

I once read a SW fan fiction that detailed Obi-Wan going through a drug addiction. The title and author slips my mind, but I remember it was horrible. Obi-Wan's fellow drug users were all mindless hippies on the GFFA's version of marijuana. And Obi-Wan was lead out of addiction by a voice in his head. I had half a mind to write to that author and express my anger, but I didn't. Part of me now wishes I had.

In the story I am currently working *cough*seethesig*cough*, the main character falls into drugs while pregnant. She knows exactly what she is doing and is glad for it. Her motivation is that she hates the father of her child. Needless to say, the child is born with certain deformities, but she attempts to take care of him. She continues to use drugs until she is literally shocked out of it. Her addiction causes her home to burn down and kills her child.

I believe drug addiction has next to nothing to do with rebelling against society. It has to do with a person's weaknesses and strengths. I know my father didn't drink to rebel against his parents. He did it because it made him feel better about himself. For those few short hours, he was glad with who he was. And the next morning feeling like crap only made him crave that satisfying feeling even more. It's the same with my character. She finds no satisfaction in her own life, and that brief high is almost worth the price she pays in the end because it made her happy.





Sorry for misspelled/grammatically incorrect phrases. I just got done with confusing Geometry homework on six new uses for a hockey puck.




Anyhow, that's my 2¢.

 

Wow freak pudding.. that's a powerful thing, and it took a lot to share it...


Thank you, and you're welcome in this thread ANYTIME....

 

WoW! That is a stark reminder of the harsh realities of it all. Thank you for sharing that...

I'd disagree about a little of it though. Depending on age, drug addiction can be a rebellious act. I know a friend who took up smoking simply because it was the only thing she could do to rebel against her mother. She didn't do it because she liked it (trust me) but because it was her way of being just slightly independent.

I've lived in the house with people who smoked Pot. It was considered a normal thing, and although I never took part (never really wanted to - drugs seem to have more of an effect on my body then on most people). I think most people did it there for the relaxation and for the escapism that the drug gives.

One of my good friends grew up with an alcoholic mother. He doesn't talk about it much, but I always get the impression it has been one of the major shaping factors of his life. He has had to act that adult and care for his mother - and I think that is one of the things that many people forget....what about the friends/family of the people who are addicted?

I have worked (and should finish) on a section of one of my character's life in which she is drug addicted. I'll post the link up here, but basically I dealt with the feelings of "needing" that next hit. The next bits I'll work on is her eventual downfall to the drug and rehabilitation. You have to understand that for this character it was originally as an act of definance - but becomes an escapism and then an addiction...

consumed


Kithera