main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Was Anakin seduced by Palpatine for 13 years?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by black_saber, May 29, 2019.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    First off, we're assuming that Palpatine invited him to his office for private chats during the first five years. It might have been more along the lines of Anakin deciding to visit Palpatine's office on his own accord, than being summoned there. Or being sent there by the Council as we see in AOTC. It might have also been situations where Palpatine requested to field Jedi and the ones he asked for were Obi-wan and Anakin.

    Second, why would the Jedi think there is anything wrong with it? Palpatine has hidden his true feelings from the Jedi and has learned how to shut himself off from the Force, so that they cannot detect the dark side within him. As far as they know, he's just an honest politician and as we see later on, they're more than willing to rely on that friendship to their advantage.

    Third, Palpatine is very careful to not draw attention from the Jedi towards their friendship. Hell, the Jedi even encourage friendships with outsiders.
     
  2. Ash_Satine

    Ash_Satine Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2017
    @darth-sinister - but exactly during the first five years Anakin should not have been able to go anywhere on his own accord. Coruscant isn't a small village. I was never in a city like NYC or LA, but I can't imagine that you would let a kid stroll around there alone? Palpatine's requests would be another thing, that's official. But even then I would question it if it happens regularly, at least, when the request is "Anakin only".

    There is nothing wrong with the friendship. Although I think that Palpatine "seduced" Anakin from early on I don't mean that in the real sense-of-the-word-way. For me his interest in Anakin was grounded in the knowledge that Anakin is strong and that it is useful to invest time in Anakin long before the time comes. He let the Jedi to the job with Anakin's education/training, but pulled him over early enough through mere friendship with the thought back in the head that this friendship could pay easily off - when Palpatine's time came.

    You already said what is wrong: "They are more than willing to rely on that friendship". So either the Jedi used Anakin from the first day on and realized that Anakin could be useful to get near the chancellor, what, in itself, could be thought of as treason or spionage and would reduce a person (Anakin) to a chess piece, or they simply ignored everything for years until they decided to use Anakin.

    Yes, Jedi encourage friendships with others. But you can't just get a fit about a boy missing his mother, just to allow said boy growing a friendship with an elderly person who could easily take on the role of a parent. That's what I meant by Anakin might have become attached to Palpatine early on through that friendship. Why shouldn't he when Palpatine just listens to his worries, rants or when Palpatine is the person he could easily talk to when missing his mother? I'm talking explicitly about the first months/years, not later on. For me Anakin was just as attached to Palpatine as he was to his mother and Padmé. It was just hidden beneath all the "Chancellor-duty-stuff".

    But the real thing that annoys me in all this is Obi-Wan's remark about "it seems your friendship with the chancellor has finally paid off for you."

    That one opens a whole can of worms. It might state a fact, but it was Obi-Wan who allowed that friendship to happen. If it is a Padawan's Master who trains a student and decides what the student does or doesn't do, then it is Obi-Wan who allowed this friendship to grow. So he alone has no right to accuse Anakin later of the fact that a friendship with the chancellor works out for Anakin. And if it was the council's decision, then they have no right to complain either.
     
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I definitely got the impression that Palpatine was placing himself in a sort of mentorship and friendship position that sort of paralleled and countered Obi-Wan's from the end of the Phantom Menace all the way through the events of Revenge of the Sith. At the end of Phantom Menace, Palpatine tells Anakin "We will watch your career with great interest" and gives Anakin a squeeze on the shoulder before walking away. That shoulder squeeze sort of reminded me of the one a Master might give his Padawan, so it made me feel like a mentorship relationship was being set up by Palpatine there, and Palaptine would certainly have sinister intentions in doing so since he is always playing that long, cunning game. Obi-Wan does look a bit uneasy about Palpatine's words and behaviors (at least in my interpretation of the scene) but he may not really know how to intervene without seeming jealous of Aankin or like he is acting against Anakin's best interests.

    In Attack of the Clones, Anakin and Obi-Wan have a difference of opinion about politicians where Anakin is insistent that Palpatine is a good man who has befriended and mentored him (which to me implies that Palpatine and Anakin must be having some form of contact if Anakin considers Palpatine a friend and mentor). Obi-Wan seems dubious, but I think Anakin just kind of attributes Obi-Wan's objections to Obi-Wan having a general distrust of politicians. I get the sense that this might have been an ongoing mini debate between them where maybe Obi-Wan wasn't exactly comfortable with Palpatine's influence on Anakin but couldn't exactly articulate why, leading Anakin to dismiss his concerns as a teenager will do. We also have the scene where Palpatine and Anakin meet and Anakin again alludes to guidance he has been given by Palpatine, which casts Palplatine in a sort of mentor role.

    In Revenge of the Sith, I think we see the culmination of Palpatine's years of careful positioning of himself as a friend and mentor to Anakin. Anakin trusts Palplatine and looks to Palpatine for guidance, which he obeys even when that guidance makes him morally uncomfortable, such as when he kills Dooku. (I think it is telling that Obi-Wan is unconscious at this time, because it allows Palpatine to pull off this dark manipulation.) Palpatine continues to seem to advise Anakin in a friendly capacity even as he makes insinuations against the Jedi Council and relates stories of Sith abilities to attain immortality. He also, much as in Attack of the Clones, knows how to stroke Anakin's ego by talking about how talented he is and reinforcing Anakin's distrust of the Jedi Council.

    I agree with those who pointed out that Palpatine can be understood as the figure who always provided constant praise to Anakin and sort of reinforced Anakin's darker perspectives and ambitions. To me, I see Palpatine being a sort of dark father figure in contrast to Obi-Wan's lighter father figure. Anakin does refer to Obi-Wan as being like a father figure to him but in Attack of the Clones in particular he voiced frustration about Obi-Wan in his view not listening to him and always being critical. It's a sort of typical teenage complaint taken from what is probably a lower point in Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship but I think that Anakin might think on a possibly subconscious level that he has to "earn" Obi-Wan's love and that he is in danger of losing it if he tells Obi-Wan certain things such as about his marriage to Padme or his slaughter of the Tusken Raiders. In contrast, he probably perceives Palplatine as the father figure who will "love" and praise him no matter what with the tragedy being that Palpatine doesn't love Anakin (he just wants to manipulate Anakin into giving into his darker impulses) and certainly doesn't want to guide Anakin down a good path. I do sometimes wonder, though, if Anakin might not have fallen to the Dark Side in the way he did if Obi-Wan was still on Coruscant. I felt like in Revenge of the Sith there was a sort of tug-of-war between Obi-Wan and Palpatine, Anakin's two father figures, for Anakin's soul, and Obi-Wan might have lost that battle when he left Coruscant. It just seemed to me that Anakin was on the verge of really opening up to Obi-Wan before Obi-Wan left Coruscant, which made Anakin's downfall all the sadder to me. Every time I watch, I can't help but hope for a different ending.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    Ash_Satine and Iron_lord like this.
  4. Luna2112

    Luna2112 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2016
    I love the PT and have never agreed with most of the bandwagon hate people throw at it, but I think the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin is one of the fundamental flaws of the prequels; imo it should have been given the same amount of focus as Anakin and Padme's relationship. Looking at the PT as just the films (so nothing from the EU or extended new Canon), Anakin and Palpatine aren't shown to have interacted at all until RotS. Palpatine doesn't meet Anakin until the very end (like final scenes) of TPM, and they don't interact at all in AotC. Then, all of a sudden, Palpatine has become a father figure to Anakin in RotS and we're just sort of told they have this close bond. RotS is my favorite Star Wars movie, but what could be argued to be the most important relationship in the saga (next to Anakin and Padme) is just sort of added in out of nowhere. Personally, I would have shown Palpatine increasingly whispering in Anakin's ear throughout TPM and AotC gaining his trust, so by the time of RotS there was a foundation where we the audience could say "oh yeah, Palpatine has been working Anakin since he started his training", and it'd make sense as to why Anakin trusted him more than the Jedi, and more importantly Obi-wan; who we're shown and told is another "father" figure for Anakin.

    And to your point of Anakin being a victim, he absolutely was, which is why Lucas called Star Wars as a whole the tragedy of Darth Vader. Palpatine manipulated and used him from the very beginning (again, not shown at all in TPM and AotC). However, I do believe Palpatine cared for Anakin in his own way, but more for what Anakin represented and his potential. For Palpatine, Anakin was the ideal apprentice he'd been searching for in Maul and Dooku. I personally think they were just tools and place holders until he could turn Anakin. Anakin was believed to be the chosen one, was a hero to the Republic and for the Jedi, and had the potential to become the most powerful Force user ever. Palpatine even straight up tells Yoda that "Darth Vader shall become more powerful than either of us" during their duel in the Senate chambers. Anakin was the ultimate prize for Palpatine, a highly valued trophy but nothing more, which was why Palpatine was so eager to replace Vader with Luke in RotJ; he saw the same potential that he had coveted in Vader but had been robbed of.
     
  5. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @Luna2112 , I think you make some good points. I definitely think that the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin was shown more than it was told in TPM and AOTC. In TPM, as you say, we don't see them together until the very end, and in AOTC, while we do have a scene of them together, it is mainly them alluding to guidance that has taken place in the past. Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin in his role as a dark father figure to Anakin was to me one of the most effective parts of ROTS, so I wouldn't have objected to being shown more than just told about that kind of dynamic in TPM and AOTC as well.

    I also agree with you that Dooku in particular seemed to be a placeholder apprentice until Anakin was ready to slot into the role of his apprentice and a useful tool in creating the war with Separatists that was instrumental in destroying the Jedi and the Republic. Palpatine is an extremely cunning character playing the long game. He manipulates the otherwise shrewd Dooku along with just about everyone else in the Star Wars universe throughout the Prequels. It's very impressive in a dark way when I think about it.
     
    Luna2112 likes this.
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Uh, in NYC at least, it is not uncommon for parents to allow their children under the age of fifteen and older than say, seven or eight, to let their children go to a neighbors a few buildings down. Or even to go to school unaccompanied by an older individual. Anakin taking a speeder to Palpatine's office from the Temple, would be quite safe.

    The thing is that the Jedi get on Anakin because he had a familiar attachment to Shmi and he didn't with Palpatine. Ergo, it was okay to allow him to visit the Chancellor from time to time. The Council was well aware of his attachments to certain people, when he became a Knight. That's why he was given a Padawan and was viewed with suspicion later when it came to spying on Palpatine.

    Obi-wan's statement has to do with the fact that Anakin has developed an ambitious streak the older he got. He knew about Anakin's feelings of being held back prior to the Battle of Geonosis and again, his feelings about not being made a Master. He's not accusing him, but pointing out that this only happens because he has let himself be used by a politician. It is an extension of their earlier arguments about trusting politicians and how they can be manipulative. In this case, Anakin has not made it a secret that he's wanted to be a Master and to be able to sit on the Council, one day. And here now, his political friend has gone and did one out of two. His friendship has paid off. Anakin is loyal to people over principles and in Obi-wan's view, that loyalty has paid dividends. He is calling it as he sees it.
     
    KyleKartan likes this.
  7. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    ^ Well yeah, Obi-Wan’s basically saying, “Dude, you’ve made it crystal clear you wanted to be the most powerful Jedi ever to just about everyone including me and now here’s Palpatine giving you exactly what you want — at least half of it, anyway.”