Was Yoda really all that wise?

1.It's silly you think that you can affect something positively but not negatively. If the Jedi can balance the Force, they can imbalance it too.
2.You are acting like the Jedi are infalliable and cannot experience hatred, greed, corruption and suffering. In the PT we see the Jedi become attached to a corrupt Republic, and use anger. The Jedi did help to imbalance the Force. One Sith Master and his apprentice can not overshadow all of the Jedi by themselves, unless the Jedi are helping them do it, albeit unconsciously.

When do the Old Jedi utilize their emotions? They preach cutting yourself from your emotions. Not confronting and accepting them. Just look at their code. "There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

Which is one of the most misinterpreted phrases ever. The original Wizards of the Coast Star Wars RPG sourcebook had Odun-Urr(the guy who the EU credits with the creation of the Jedi Code as it existed in the Prequel era) expand on the meaning behind the words and it's echoed by what Wookieepedia says "Emotions are a natural part of living. As the great sagas have shown us, Jedi are not immune to feeling emotions. Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Master Yoda both openly express their sorrow when they discover the death of younglings at the newly-appointed Darth Vader's hand. This tenet is not to say that emotion does not exist but that it ought to be set aside. Emotions must be understood first, and it is a young Jedi's duty to explore his feelings. Unless a Jedi can confront his thoughts and feelings, he will never achieve peace. Emotions, then, are not to be overcome or denied, but rather understood and dealt with. A'Sharad Hett reminds the young Anakin Skywalker of this during their campaigns together during the Clone Wars. Hett points out that Anakin's anger is understandable, but he must face it. This tenet could be modified to read "Emotion cannot take away my peace."

 

1.It's silly you think that you can affect something positively but not negatively. If the Jedi can balance the Force, they can imbalance it too.


That's a good point Apocalypse. Just having the title "Jedi" attached to you doesn't mean that you can't stuff up monumentally.

 

What the tenet is supposed to mean and what the Jedi actually teach are two different things. Throughout the PT the Jedi warn against using emotions AT ALL. They don't say confront and conquer. Look at how they treat Anakin in TPM. He's a little kid who just was seperated from his mother yet the Jedi act like he's a killer just because he is scared to lose his mom. Instead of explaning that his fear is natural and that he needs to move past it, they tell him the usual "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, etc." Does this sound like the advice of people exploring their emotions? In AOTC when Yoda senses Anakin killing the Tuskens, does he ever talk to him about his anger? Nope, he just ignored it. Again in ROTS nothing has changed. When Anakin goes to Yoda for advice, Yoda doesn't tell him it's natural to worry about death. Instead he tells him he should ignore the fact his wife might die and should rejoice the fact she's joining the Force. What kind of advice is that? So I'll ask you again, when do you see the PT Jedi telling Padawans to confront and conquer their feelings, instead of telling them to completely supress their feelings and never explore them?

 

No more so than Yoda does in Empire.

No, the Jedi merely recognize the danger in training Anakin and see what he could become.

It sounds no different than what Yoda says in The Empire Strikes Back with "Once you start down the dark path, forver weill in dominate your destiny." Which is true from a certain point of view.

He doesn't sense that Anakin killed the Tuskens though, all Yoda senses is that Anakin's in pain.

The Jedi advice. Anakin needs to let go, but the Jedi are aware that he'll feel it(notice we never see them condemn Obi-Wan's grief at the death of Qui-Gon/the Younglings/Anakin's 'death and Yoda's grief over Order 66.) I'm not saying the Jedi are good at communicating it, I'm just saying it's their belief.

They never say the latter. They say that fear and greed are a path to the Dark Side, and as Anakin himself shows, they are.

 

You can see their teachings in the actions of Obi-wan during the PT.

 

Up until ROTJ, this statement was true. According to the Star Wars universe as GL created it (just the movies) no one had returned from to the Dark Side. Not Palpatine, Maul or Dooku. And even in ESB, when Yoda made the statement, Vader hadn't returned either. So GL was making it clear that in Yoda's dealings with the force, no one has been able to return to the light after giving in to the Dark Side.

 

I think the point that ROTJ makes clear is that getting angry is not turning to the Dark Side. Nor is being fearful or any of the other so called "dark side" feelings. The turn will come when those feelings are allowed to grow and consume a person. And that will happen when the feelings aren't confronted properly, or dealt with now, rather than worrying constantly about where they'll lead. In other words, being ignorant of the Living Force.

 

I guess Quinlan Vos doesn't count?

 

Quin's not part of the 'just the movie' universe.

 

I'm referring to the movies because the EU is a whole different universe of Star Wars. It's kind of like the alternate universe to Star Wars, where GL's rules are only followed loosely. So, no; I don't count Vos.

 

Which shows that Yoda didn't learn anything from the PT.

Recognizing the danger and taking steps to prevent it are two different things. Obi-Wan warned the Council numerous times about Anakin, but each time he was ignored.

1.You can justify anything by saying from a "certain point of view". I could say the children in the Jedi Temple deserved what they got, from a "certain point of view". It doesn't mean I'm right.
2.Yoda is not infalliable and he is not the absolute authority on the Force. As we see in ROTJ, Yoda was wrong because Luke started down the Dark Path, but was able to turn away and Vader was able to redeem himself and even become a Force Ghost. If he was a true Sith, he wouldn't be able to become a Force Ghost.

He can sense the anger and death surrounding Anakin.

It's pretty difficult to get your piont across when your words contradict your actions.

So why isn't a Luke a Sith right now too? Fear and greed will help you fall, but raw emotion alone does not make you a Sith.

 

Lots of posts about balance here....

I am wondering

The "will" of the Force seems to be a major theme in the saga, as does fate/destiny, which is brought about I suppose by the same "will". I wonder how it works, that this all penetrating energy, can be tossed about by any person, even a Sith. The Force is this great thing, until something bad happens, now its a victim?

This is like saying you believe in Gods will, but then something "bad" happens, and you don't want to credit that one to God because you didn't understand its purpose. Everything is a part of Gods plan if you are a true believer, or nothing is. Not everything is meant to be understood.

Balance isn't even a factor here, the will of the Force is always functioning, or non existent. To say that 2 bad guys can through it out of balance makes it a joke. Just because we don't like Palpatine, doesn't mean his role in the "will" of the Force isn't as crucial as anyones.

I am sure this idea isn't canon, and I would imagine there are plenty of quotes to contradict this observation, but most fiction doesn't hold up to philosophical scrutiny.


Darth Duckie: really liked some of your previous posts =)

 

Thanks Boxy.

Long time, no hear. Good to see another one of your thought provoking posts pop up. I look forward to responding when time allows.

 

It's a fascinating one isn't it? I guess it comes down to two things. One, the nature of whatever powers there are out there in the Universe. Are there notions of good and bad, right and wrong, meant and not meant in the Universe, beyond theose that we humans create to give order and meaning to our lives? And two, what is the relationship between destiny and choice, if any?

If there is no external code, then everything that occurs is as much the will of whatever that power is as anything else. It happened, so it's willed, or alternately, there is no will, just things that occur, which we humans respond to as best we can to prevent complete chaos occuring. If there is some external code, then some actions could be seen as more in tune with the greater power than others. Helping those in need might be more in sync with the powers that be than killing someone for instance. It could be that the going against the greater intention is a trade off for having freedom of choice in our actions.

On top of that, there's the general destiny and choice issue. Is the future always in motion, is everything completely and utterly pre-destined, or are there certain things destined to occur, but the way, time and place in which they do can be manipulated by the choices of those participating?

I think in SW the Force does have a will and there is a sense of destiny, manipulated by a degree of free choice.(You'll disgree with me there Boxy) The will was that it be balanced (hence the prophecy). IMO that doesn't mean perfected, but rather not grossly skewed in any one direction. I also believe that there are forces of good and evil out there (in amongst many shades of gray)I think the Sith were at odds with the will of the Force because they took perfectly normal emotions and feelings (anger, fear and attachment) and twisted them into evil in the form of the Dark Side. They were destined to change or be exterminated in the process of balancing the Force. I also think, though, that the Jedi became at odds with the will of the Force in that they couldn't see distortions in the Force other than the Dark Side. Their ignorance of the Living Force demonstrates this. I think they were also destined to change or be exterminated for the Force to be blanced. They changed (eventually).

 

The Force is an energy field created by all living things.
It exists in a state of mutual benefit.
The Jedi seek to protect the interests of all living things, and in turn protect the Force and enact its will.
The Sith seek only to serve themselves, and abuse the Force to this end.

The only way for the Sith is down.
They want more for themselves all the time, and seek more power in the belief that this will satisfy those desires.
They are afraid of losing their life and the power they have acrued - that is the motive behind everything they do - holding on.
Control.
Greed -> fear -> anger -> hate -> suffering.
The deal is, if you use your power to oppress, everyone suffers, including yourself.
And that is what causes imbalance - the force is created by all living thigs. And with the destrcutiveness of the Sith - all living things suffer.

 

Yoda comes out of the PT looking cool,pompous, highly-able, and diligent.
But Yoda does not come out looking wise.
So the answer is NO.

 

At least Yoda was very clear in ESB by reminding Luke of what happened to Vader, sending him into the Dark Side cave where he fought illusion Vader, and letting him go to Bespin where Luke finds out that Vader is his father. Yoda was too cryptic with Anakin which makes it hard for Anakin to understand what Yoda's talking about and to make matters worse, Palpatine is already twisting Anakin's head just to confuse him over whose more loyal to him, the Jedi or Palpatine.

But instead of making him feel like he's a member of the team, they focused on what they saw in his future and punish him for things he hasn't done yet which causes Anakin to be more loyal to Palpatine instead of the Jedi. By doing that, they've realized their worst fears and that led to their downfall.

Again, Yoda was very clear in ESB but not in the prequals because he hasn't shown anything to Anakin to convince him why he shouldn't use the Dark Side. Even when Anakin saw both Maul and Dooku in action, he still doesn't understand what the Dark Side is all about and what would happen if he were to succumb to it.

But he heard both the Tuskens screaming and the ghost of Qui-Gon telling Anakin to stop so Yoda would've realised that Anakin did more than suffer over the death of his mother.

The Jedi sensed that Obi-wan had overcame his fear of loss when he defeated Darth Maul and they were all being killed off so they had no say over Yoda's grief over Order 66 nor Obi-wan's grief over Anakin and the Younglings. Besides, their beliefs are too condecending its like they don't care that Anakin is having any problems which is why he never listens to them.

And they've done nothing to prevent Anakin from giving into his fears. They've been couped up in their temple for many centuries that they've lost touch with the outside world so they've been unprepared for someone like Anakin.