Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by First_Stage_Lensman, Feb 23, 2003.

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  1. Jawabacca

    Jawabacca Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 18, 2006
    I'm going to have to eat my own words . . .

    My son had one of his best friends over the other night. She just turned 8, and she's sort of a "girlie" girl. But she was asking about Star Wars, and she wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Naturally, I popped IV into the DVD player. And, while she liked it, she asked, "Is that Anakin?" the first time Luke came on. Then later, she asked where Anakin was. And later still, "When does Anakin become a bad guy?" So, I ended up having to explain it all to her.

    Anyway, something to consider, for the time being. The PT and all it's hype is still too fresh.
  2. darthzeppo

    darthzeppo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 21, 2005
    I think it?s more a matter of the PT being the younger generations Star Wars.
    Everybody at school went to see the Phantom Menace & when AOTC came out I was working in a crèche and all the kids ( 3-5 years) that had seen it loved it and were fighting with lightsabers they made out of Lego -they didn?t have plastic swords.

    & if I was going to show a girlie girl a SW movie & didn?t care about order I?d show her AOTC.
  3. LordHelmet1

    LordHelmet1 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jan 13, 2006
    I think the best way to watch it is 4-6, 1-3, and not cause I am an oldtimer, but the problem is that Lucas has changed the overall story after each movie since 1977. Watching it 1-6 as the tragedy of Darth Vader seems fine with the first three PT movies, but that story gets lost big time in Episode IV, and the viewer kind of watches ANH and some parts of the OT out of context.

    I just think the best way to watch it is as it was written, that way the viewer keeps up with the changes in story as Lucas changed them too.

    You can watch Episode IV as that standalone movie when nobody is related and follows the heroes all through the movie, and get the true feeling of that movie the way it was suppose to be in 1977. ESB & ROTJ are to be watched more as the Luke/Vader, Father/Son personal conflict, but in the same vein still watching it through the heroes Luke, Leia, and Han as they all celebrate at the end of ROTJ together.

    When getting to the PT, now the viewer will wonder how this Darth Vader guy came to be, and that is exactly what the PT is about, a character study about Anakin and how one becomes evil along the backdrop of the galaxy going to hell.

    It is a shame cause 1-6 should be the way now, but with Lucas changing the overall story so much since The Original Star Wars, I feel the viewer will be watching much of the OT out of context because that story was not written as the tragedy of Darth Vader, by keeping up with the way Lucas filmed the movies, it won't be jarring to the newcomer as the story evolves by the time he gets to Episode III as the last movie.
  4. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 30, 2005
    I agree completely

    Watching the films in the order of release is like watching a work in progress as Lucas tries to work out which way his story is going.

    Although watching them 1-6 is a cool experiment, thats all it is to me, an experiment.

    4-6, 1-3 is the way to introduce people to the universe. That way they learn along with Lucas!
  5. Primetime_Jedi

    Primetime_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 21, 2000
    I'm basically a "1-6" believer.

    But, recently I have recognized that 4-6, 1-3 might be valid.

    Here's my concern: the characters. If you watch 1-3 first, you get know a whole bunch of Jedi and a few other characters. Then they all die or disappear. When 4 begins, Luke, Han, and Leia don't seem to be as big of characters as they did in the old days. They feel like just a minor part of the saga.

    It's like Lucas is saying, "Remember all those 'good guys' from 1-3? Forget about them. Here are the new good guys you're supposed to root for." (except for Obi-Wan and Yoda, of course) "And say bye to Jar Jar too. He didn't die. He just isn't coming back anyway."

    Now, you could argue that this is the nature of a multi-generational story. Granted. But I think the ensemble-character-arc suffers a bit from 1-6.

    Another issue is the "Coruscant-Arc." We see tons of Coruscant in 1-3, then just a tiny scene tacked on to the end of 6. It doesn't flow very well.

    All that said, I still think 1-6 is cool.
  6. LordHelmet1

    LordHelmet1 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jan 13, 2006
    Here's what I think will happen for new fans watching it 1-6. Han Solo will be an irrelevant character in the grand scheme of things pertaining to the story of Anakin/Luke. Han has zero to do with Darth Vaders redemption, he has zero to do with the force, zero to do with the rise and fall of the jedi, but that is not what The Original SW was about in 1977, or the OT in general before the PT came out.

    Han Solo steals the show in the OT, as he is the one character an audience member can identify with. But if you look at how the saga is structured now 1-6, Han Solo plays a very minor role, and what I thought were some of the best parts with him:

    -Running through the death star with Chewy, Leia, and Luke
    -Saving Luke on Hoth, and making cracks at Leia as you knew they were falling in love
    -The whole asteroid field and evading The Empire, and meeting up with Lando on Bespin
    -The whole rescue mission to save Han in Jabbas Palace in ROTJ

    All this stuff is so minor to the tragedy of Darth Vaders story as a viewer watches it 1-6 now, I can't help but think they will be watching many of those parts in the wrong context, when I found them to be the best of the OT.

    I would ask anyone:

    After watching 4-6, you are dying to know the backstory of Anakin, Yoda, The Emperor, Kenobi, Luke/Leia's mom, and The whole Jedi and how the empire came about.

    After watching 1-3, you will want to know about Vader, Kenobi, The Emperor, Yoda and Luke & Leia, but will they really care about that Han Solo guy?

    Ask anyone who saw the OT first how important that Han Solo guy is to the OT.
  7. Jawabacca

    Jawabacca Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 18, 2006
    That is a great point! I totally agree. Han's role would be so diminished. He'd be just be another Lando. Entertaining, but not as important. Someone said on one of these threads that the differnce between the old Jedi Order and the new Jedi Order was that Luke had friends he was willing to fly across the galaxy for, and vice versa. So, Han is very important. But, his important would be diminished as the focus would be off of him.

    Another reason why I enjoy the OT better first is because you see it in one context before watching the PT, and then after the PT, you get to see it in an entirely different context. It's like The Sixth Sense, it's one movie, and then after you see the twist at the end, it becomes a completely different movie when you watch it again.
  8. LordHelmet1

    LordHelmet1 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jan 13, 2006
  9. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Apr 24, 2001
    That is a great point! I totally agree. Han's role would be so diminished.

    Hmmm, yeah, that is a convincing argument, LordHelmet1.
  10. darthzeppo

    darthzeppo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 21, 2005
    Star Wars is like Wuthering Heights

    WH is in two parts separated by about 17 years or so.Each half revolves around 3 or 4 characters but the main character of the book is Heathcliff.

    1st half


    2nd half

    Cathy & Linton?s daughter Cathy
    Heathcliffs son Linton
    Hindly?s son Hareton

    All the other adults are either dead or soon die & only Heathcliff is alive. The story shifts it?s focus to the younger generation & Heathcliff?s role is diminished. But he is still there causing havoc & trying to control things.
    You would still say that the book is about Heathcliff.

    I doubt that Lucas read WH but it is an interesting coincidence.

    DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 17, 2005
    That is a great point! I totally agree. Han's role would be so diminished.

    Then I wonder why Han tells Luke "May the Force be with you" ALREADY in THE STAR WARS (before the 1978 version of ANH) itself. Han Solo is NOT a main character in the full scheme of things, his importance is perhaps overrated. Im not saying his not important at all, but in the end, he has to make way for the Force compromising his belief that there's no field controlling his destiny. "I knowwhat Im doing"- which paved the way for his return to help Luke (which I elaborate below).

    He began to be more modest and realizes the bigger picture. He first said he's not doing things for this so called "Revolution", YET, comes back to assist Luke blow up the Death Star. Like Luke made way for his father to bring balance back to the Force, Han allows (makes way) for Luke's destiny to give a huge moral victory for the Rebellion a la DS destruction.

    But if you are looking for Darth Vader internal struggle when watching the OT, you're gonna have to wait til the last hour of ROTJ

    I don't think so. His Inner struggle began when he was Obssesively searching for Luke, at the start of ESB. Later on to say "he's just a boy" about Luke and further more calls out to Luke "Son come with me", after Luke calls him "father".

  12. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 20, 2005
    I-III is interesting, but IV-VI is better. It is hard to see the PT blend completly into the OT but I accept it does. I'm not one of these that necessarily see's them as seperate trilogies. I just think Episodes I and II are weak and I prefer to watch the OT first so I'm hit with three of my favourites in one go.

    I have no solid preference or belief on how the films should be watched but I would recommend starting with the OT to a first time viewer.
  13. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 30, 2005
    While I believe fully in 4-6, 1-3 - one could argue that whilst watching 1-6 Vader's diminished role in ANH is due to his diminished standing in the Saga at this point after making a deal with the devil and losing.

    At the end of ROTS, before fighting Kenobi, we see a Vader who believes he is that powerful he can overthrow the Emporer.

    Contrast that to one film later, he is a half man, inferior in ranking even to Tarkin.

    This shows us that not only has the Darkside led to a loss of power for Anakin, by switching the focus to his children, it also drives the point of the OT - that Sidious wants to replace Vader with a better model of himself i.e Luke, then Leia.
  14. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 20, 2005
    Very true. I like that point. The PT definately has changed many things about the OT. Your point is simply one of them that stands to reason. However there has always been much talk of Vader and Tarkin. Lucas always seemed to want Vader in that henchman role. Come ESB he is let lose and then back into henchman mode for ROTJ. He still had that domineering factor throughout but he always seemed to be kept on a leash.
  15. Qui-Gon_66

    Qui-Gon_66 Jedi Youngling

    Jan 7, 2006
    For those saying Han's role is diminished, I don't think you're looking at the big picture. Who is responsible for Anakin's redemption, which is the main storyline I-VI. Luke. And let's face it, without Han, Luke would never have made it as far as he did.

    And it goes beyond that. Han is the guy Anakin never had. Anakin never had a friend that would help him in the trench run of the Death Star to blast this thing and go home. Han is the kind of attachment humans need, even Jedi. The kind Anakin was never allowed to have.

    Even the Jedi Order... does anyone view these guys as friends. No, not really. They are comrades for sure, but I don't see them ever really discussing personal stuff. Even Yoda tells Anakin to let go of all that loses to fear (including friends).

    What I'm saying is that the friendship of Han is integral to Luke's training and his eventually help in the redemption of Anakin.
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Aug 22, 1999
    Here is something I posted yesterday in another forum about this topic....

    Regardless of the order created, it's clearly meant to be seen in the order numbered, 1-6.

    Watching them in the order created, or even the Ernest Rister order (4-5-1-2-3-6) is a good way to preserve one of the biggest surprises for the audience in cinema history. ***WARNING SPOILERS READ FURTHER AT YOUR OWN RISK*** That Darth Vader is Luke's father. I can understand the desire to keep this one, but I feel there is just too much more ruined for the sake of this one (albeit landmark) surprise. Sure if you watch it in proper order 1-6, this surprise is gone. What do I mean? Where is it? That's what I'm trying to tell you kid, it's been totally blown away. What? How? Destroyed by the prequels.

    This caused a great disturbance in the fan base as if millions of hard core Star Wars fans clutched their chests in disorientation, and felt something terrible had happened.

    Sure it's hard to say goodbye to "the" surprise. But just think of all the surprises for a first time viewer you have to slaughter in pursuit of preserving that one revelation.[blockquote]1) You know Palpatine is Sidious. Sure, to all of us hard core fans, we all knew he was the Emperor going into TPM. We knew his name was Palpatine even though his name was never spoken in the classic trilogy. We're just sick like that. We find this stuff out in ancillary material like kiddy storybooks and comics and jr. novelizations. As soon as Ian McDiarmid came on screen in TPM we all jumped up and said: He's the Emperor. But for someone who sees TPM as their first experience in the Star Wars universe they won't know that. All they will have to go on is one camera shot at the end of The Phantom Menace where Yoda and Mace ponder whether or not the Master or Apprentice Sith was destroyed. The camera then pans across all the people at Qui-Gon's incineration ceremony and happens to rest on Palpatine. He's not cackling, he's not wringing his hands, he actually appears to be sad about Qui-Gon's death. Sure to all of us who know the whole story back and forth, it's obvious foreshadowing. But to a first time viewer, it passes under the radar.

    2) You know the Republic ends up becoming the Empire. It's a pretty big development in the story.

    3) You know the Jedi get almost wiped out of existence with the exception of Obi-Wan and Yoda. This causes two problems.[blockquote]A) You go in knowing who's going to win in the end.

    B) You know Yoda and Obi-Wan's lives won't be taken because they survive.[/blockquote]4) You know Padme doesn't make it. If you don't know it's coming, it's a very tragic development for an audience.

    5) You know Anakin turns to the Dark Side and becomes Darth Vader. The whole point of telling the tragedy of a hero is to set the audience up for a huge fall. If you know it's coming the whole time, you just get this "well let's get on with it" kind of attitude to everything. If you are still rooting for Anakin to make the right choices in the end, even if he does screw up here and there along the way, then his final choices and ultimate fate become that much more gut wrenching. To me, that's even more gut wrenching than Luke's surprise in Empire, regardless of how much Hammil hammed up his response to it. To me that's the real heart of the Star Wars saga. A hero that screwed it all up and then struggles to regain his very humanity.[/blockquote]All these surprises ruined. Destroyed by the classic trilogy. All for the sake of preserving the ?Vader is Anakin? revelation. The other surprises some may bring up such as Yoda really being Yoda when we first see him on Dagobah, and Leia being Luke's sister are valid, but to me they seem pretty insignificant. In fact, knowing Luke and Leia are related from the get go makes the "Leia is my Sister" and "I know, somehow I?ve always known" expositions seem like less of a ham fisted way to tie up the story in a jiffy.

    The other "issues" people bring up with watching them in proper order 1-6 are issues regarding the perception that you can
  17. nisomer

    nisomer Jedi Master star 1

    Mar 1, 2004
    =D= =D= I applaud thee
  18. LordHelmet1

    LordHelmet1 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jan 13, 2006
    I will contend til the day I die, that the biggest reason for me why 1-6 doesn't work is that it marginalizes Episode IV.

    We can talk about all the moments that each trilogy spoils watching first, and all the characters differences when they are in both trilogies, and even the amount of CG in each trilogy too, but there is no debate that the original SW had zero to do with Darth Vader story one bit, and that is why it is so out of place when watching it as the #4 movie out of 6.

    I am going to concede that ESB & ROTJ work 1-6 just to get away from an OT/PT debate, they atleast had Vader as the main antagonist to Luke in those movies, and the scope of the movies went from macro to micro.

    But ANH, or Star Wars '77 is totally different from the other 5 SW movies, and that is why it is ranked so low on many newcomers lists. The movie was plain & simple about good vs evil, or rebellion vs empire, or David vs Goalith, it was nothing to do with that Vader was the father of Luke & Leia, and about his overall redemption.

    The movie gets lost with new viewers cause it really doesn't focus on Vader at all, and not because he is this pathetic #2 guy that Lucas says he is now, but that he really wasn't the main antagonist in the movie, Tarkin was the lead bad guy, and the 'Empire' was the real antagonist. In ESB, Vader was clearly the antagonist, and in ROTJ, the Emperor was the real Antagonist, but this story was clearly about more than just about Luke/Vader, that ESB & ROTJ focused much more on.

    There are also many thinks that were written by Lucas in 1977 that have changed now after watching the saga:

    -ObiWan says Vader killed Lukes father, and now the saga and the OT for that matter has Vader as Lukes father

    -Now as the saga and the OT, Leia is the daughter of Vader, when she is clearly just a princess who comes face to face with him in the first 5 minutes, and shows there is no sense of the force between them? Cause wasn't that the reason for hiding her in ROTS, so Vader wouldn't sense them?

    -Uncle Owen hating Kenobi vehemently was a huge mystery in 1977, why? After watching ROTS, and Kenobi hands Luke to Owen & Beru, he holds him to the binary sunset, and now he hates the guy?

    -The fact that the saga or story is now about the tragedy of Darth Vader really takes away from following the good guys in this movie and them cracking jokes through the death star. The movie should be watched through Luke, Leia, and Han, but one can't help watching the PT first, and wondering, "OK, I need to see alittle more Vader here, since the first 3 movies were clearly about him." They will miss the whole point of the movie when it was made, Vader is just a really cool bad guy, and his character at that time had no real depth like he did in ROTJ.

    If you read past threads of newcomers, and you have to think they are being honest, but I have come to the conclusion that the Original SW really suffers after watching 1-6, cause it is the only Star Wars movie that really wasn't made in mind with the whole big picture Lucas developed after it was a hit in 1977. I know I still think it is a classic, cause I still watch it as a standalone movie, or #1 movie of the OT.
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Aug 22, 1999
    I agree, if you think things went wrong after ANH, then there is no order to worry about. It's just "Star Wars" without the Episode IV "ANH" attatched. On it's own it's still a great stand alone movie.

    If you see ANH after the prequels, you will know Leia is Vader's daughter and then the reason why they dont' act like it just comes down to the fact they don't know that fact yet. So that dynamic isn't really out of place in the larger saga, it just has more baggage associated with it because the audience knows something the characters do not.

    As to the way the story shifts from Anakin to Luke, that is sensible considering Anakin became the bad guy. Luke is now the new hero, so of course it would shift to his perspective. We don't see much of the emperor because unlike Anakin who was always with the established government, Luke is a rebel isolated from society at large.

    To me that isolation is a wonderful dynamic.

    Owen "hating" Kenobi is a perception that isnt' neccessarily borne out in what we see in ANH. Owen calls him a crazy old wizard to Luke, but I always read that as his way of protecting Luke from the truth of his parentage.
  20. CJS

    CJS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Feb 15, 2006
    I am a fan of Lord_NoONE's sequence of 4-1-2-5-3-6.
  21. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Aug 24, 2002
    Well the one reason I no longer see it as a surprise is that I have already seen it. On top of that we as fans have talked about it so much that you can't keep it as a surprise. That and it is also talked about a lot out side of the fandom.

    Some of the things I hear are well what about those who are not fans yet. Well if they have never been fans before then chances of them becoming fans now is it really big. But I would say if you do wnat to keep that "surprise" for them then make sure they don't watch Ep1, Ep2, and Ep3. But once they have seen the surprise then waht's the big deal?

    If you watch them in proper order 1-6, at least you get to see the events as they unfold. The "Vader is Anakin" surprise in Empire is no longer for the audience, but for Luke Skywalker alone. On the upside however, the drama the audience will feel as they wonder how long it will take for Luke to find out the truth, and what he might do once he does is much more interesting and substantial to me. It just resonates deeper for some reason.

    I have to agree with this here.

    -Uncle Owen hating Kenobi vehemently was a huge mystery in 1977, why? After watching ROTS, and Kenobi hands Luke to Owen & Beru, he holds him to the binary sunset, and now he hates the guy?

    Well it could be the fact that he blames Kenobi for what happened to Anakin. Add to that the Own and Beru don't want what happened to his father to happen Luke. Heck they lied about what his father did. They just did not want Luke going down the same path in fear that he would turn to the Dark Side.
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Aug 22, 1999
    See that's the dillema. I am strictly talking about the experience of that mythical example of someone who has no idea about Star Wars going in for the first time. Separating the Saga storyline from it's place in pop culture and looking at just how it's structured as a narrative, the "I am your Father." revelation is one of the most well crafted and yet unexpected twists in cinema history. I can see why people would put a priority of keeping that surprise for a first time viewer.

    On the other hand, if you watch it 4-5-6 then 1-2-3, you lose all those other surprises in the prequels I listed out. I know a lot of people don't think the prequels are very good, and I can see why they would put a premium on the classic trilogy surprises. There are even people who solve this problem by only watching the asga as 4-5-6.
    Well said.
  23. Darthdias

    Darthdias Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 12, 2004
    Why does everyone say he hates Kenobi? All he said was "that wizard's just a crazy old man". Dislike, I can se. Hate, no not so much.

    It's probably just as simple as Owen doesn't want Luke to be a Jedi and Obi-Wan does, as other posters have mentioned. They probably had many arguments about this, for example Obi-Wan wanted to give Luke Anakin's lightsaber, which Owen would have none of.

    However, I don't think Owen cared enough about Anakin to hold a grudge against Kenobi for it. But he was worried that Luke would follow the same path (if he knows about Anakin's true fate or not is uncertain, though).
  24. Darthdias

    Darthdias Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 12, 2004
    ANH is not neccessarily ruined by the prequel trilogy. I found an interesting read on IMDb a year ago or so.

    A guy posted an experiment he made with a female friend of his. He asked her to watch the Star Wars saga I-VI over the cource of a few weeks or so, and then he asked her questions after each film. He also asked fellow imdb users to ask questions he could pass forward to her.

    The experiment was bumped of the boards eventually when it had ran its course, but I found it again recently by doing a google search.

    Enjoy! (it's raher long but IMO worth the read):

    "For those who haven't heard, I am conducting an experiment.

    Subject:23 year old female.

    Objective:To have subject view the STAR WARS SAGA in chronological order.

    Note:The subject has very minimal knowledge of Star Wars.

    Here's 9 questions that I asked her after she has seen her first STAR WARS movie ever.

    1)On a scale from 1-10, how would you rate "STAR WARS Episode I The Phantom Menace"?

    She goes on to explain that she is more into romantic comedies.

    2)What was your favorite part?
    The Pod Race, and the other action sequences, but specifically The Pod Race.
    She also went on to say she really liked how the queen had the DECOY and used her to catch the bad guys at the end.

    3)Least favorite moment?
    She first said "When Qui Gon Jin died", but I had to let her know that it was regarding a disappointment in the "make" of the movie.
    So she answered with...
    When Anakin's friends were making fun of him before the race.
    She felt it was too much of a set up for the race itself, and it gave away that Anakin would win.

    4)Who is your favorite character?
    Qui Gon Jinn.

    5)Who is your least favorite character?
    Again she misunderstood at first.
    Anikin's mother. She felt she was really mysterious at times and has a weird feeling about her.
    So then I asked again like before.
    She said...
    The Viceroy. She didn't like how they were just so dumb about everything.I bet you thought she was going to say Jar Jar, didn't you?
    I did.

    6)Did you feel you understood the movie?

    7)Are you looking forward to seeing Episode 2?
    Yes. She's curious to see what happens to Anakin. She feels he's going to turn into a bad guy after how Yoda spoke to him. He also misses his mother and Qui Gon (father-like) is gone. How he will train to be a Jedi.
    I was trying so hard to keep a straight face when she didn't know about the Anakin/Vader thing.

    8)What did you think of Jar Jar?
    He was good, funny in some parts, but it made me cringe when he just kept getting into trouble, but then he would correct some things which was good.

    9)Was "STAR WARS Episode I The Phantom Menace" better or worse than you expected?

    After she answered with a "5" rating, I thought she was going to kill me for making her watch it, but really, all in all she thought it was ok.

    It's so interesting to see a person's point of view, though it is just one person, that has no real expectations.

    Some more notes: She felt it dragged in spots when she wanted to turn it off and go to sleep, but when there was action and certain plot points, she really liked it.

    That concludes this portion of THE EXPERIMENT.

    If anyone wants additional input, or has questions they want to ask the subject that you feel should be covered, please PM me and I will ask her.

    I will check back to the thread when posting phase 2: ATTACK OF THE CLONES.


    These are the results for ATTACK OF THE CLONES

    To see what subject had said about THE PHANTOM MENACE, click here.

    To see what subject had said about REVENGE OF THE SITH, click here.

    To see what subject had to say about A NEW HOPE click the link.
  25. Darthdias

    Darthdias Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 12, 2004
    Heh, after reading it more thouroghly I realize that there are arguments for both sides in this text. It is to be pointed out though that the reason she disliked Han was not because he played a minor part in Anakin's story, but because she simply didn't like his character (although she warmed up a bit to him in ROTJ).
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