ST Watching TFA and TLJ Back to back?

For someone who doesn’t read the novelizations, you’re making up a lot of story that isn’t on screen. I’ve noticed Kylo Ren fans seem to do that, invent this entire story about how Leia is too busy and Han is an absentee father when that’s nowhere in the movie. There’s no inferring that from the movies.

Uncle Luke thinks about murdering him because he was already so dark that he scared Luke. And Kylo proved how dark he was because he hopped up and murdered half his classmates and turned the rest, then went off to join the First Order.

 

No, I pay attention to the movies. In TLJ. Luke said Snoke had already turned his heart. Leia said the same thing in TFA.

And in TFA, both Han and Leia talk about how they want back to doing the only thingz they knew how.

And LOL @ Kylo fan. When did I ever say I liked his character?

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Leia and Han say the they went back AFTER Kylo turned. Snoke turning his heart or whatever doesn’t equal that Leia was too busy or Han was a terrible father except in Abrams’ “explanations” for Kylo.

Also, you call him Ben Solo. That’s a dead giveaway.

 

Oh man. It’s just easier typing Ben than Kylo Ren constantly. Taking your conspiracies elsewhere.


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I mean, Kylo does tell Rey that Han Solo would have disappointed her as a father. So there is something in the movies from which we can infer that Han wasn't really there for Kylo.

And full disclosure, I am a Kylo Ren fan. Not Ben Solo, though. He was weak like his father.

 

Han being a terrible father wouldn't be throwing him under the bus. The guy was introduced as a career criminal and a cold blooded murderer. He made some solid progress throughout the OT, but surely you wouldn't be surprised if such a guy wasn't the best father in the world. Having said that, if he was a bad father, it would in no way absolve Kylo.

 

Yeah making a story about how Han was a bad father therefore his only son turned to the dark side is obviously throwing him under the bus. The Han of RotJ was a man of principal that proved multiple times that he had discovered what it meant to put the people you love first. He loved Leia. He loved Luke. He would have loved his son. The worst post-RotJ Han would have done as a father is take his child with him adventuring. He would not have been absentee. The dialogue from TFA where Kylo trash talks him, I take as the word of a narcissistic self pitying dark sider, the sort that would impale a loving and forgiving father begging him to come home. IOW, Kylo is full of caca.

Kylo is a crappy son and a crappy nephew. Patricide and mass school shooting kind of mandate that conclusion of his character. There’s nothing there for Rey to plausibly relate to. He’s the opposite of her. Between Han and Kylo on the bridge, Rey is Han. Kylo is the drunken loser parents.

 

I don't trust Kylo in that moment either. More than likely, Kylo was just a brat as a kid and then Snoke really messed him up. But, I'm simply not one for freezing characters in carbonite based on the last moment we saw them. Before his OT progress, Han was a dirtbag. In the real world, dirtbags manage to get clean only to revert back to their old ways all time. I don't think Han was a bad father, but it wouldn't be crazy if he was. And frankly, I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging it.

 

I just find Kylo (and even Rey) to be boring, unlikable characters. There's no dimensionality to them. So it's difficult to get invested in their stories.

 

I don't care if its throwing Han under the bus or not, I'm simply not buying it. If that's the story, I reject it. I have no interest in a story with Han and Leia being bad parents, it was never anything I wanted to see. LFL was never going to get anything other than a brick wall from me if that's their story. They certainly haven't gotten any of my money for it.

LFL: Would you like to pay to see a movie with Han and Leia as bad parents of a Vader worshiping son?
Me: No.
LFL: But it has Han and Leia!
Me: Pass.

 

Lucky for you, it's not story. Whew.

 

Um, you did saw what happened in the end, yes?
He was betrayed by the person he loved. That's the main source of his cynicism. His "nice" side ended up causing him to lose what he cared about. Han Solo has a good side inside himself, but he had reached a level on which he counted only on what he knew he could trust,and that list more or less ends with Chewie. The Han Solo as he exists at the start of the OT may have the goodness deep inside him, after all, he ends up making the right choice in the end, but he was still a notorious criminal who didn't care about whether he was killing others if necessary, and who had a tendency for over the top bravado. Hardly an ideal role model for anyone.

And seriously, what the issue with being "bad parents"?
Being bad parents in this particular manner doesn't mean that you were mean or otherwise bad to your child, it could also mean that you never really connected in the way that was necessary. That happens all the time, regardless of how well-meaning parents and child are towards each other. Sometimes characters don't match well enough, regardless of how hard you try to be good parents. Not to mention that one's personal views don't necessarily reflect reality. Ben could feel that his parents weren't there for him even if they did their best they could. He was just a kid, and was under the influence of Snoke for a very long time. Children aren't exactly rational beings all the times, and being under the influence of a darksider certainly isn't going to improve that situation.

In no way, shape or from, does any of that "throw the OT3 under the bus".

 

Han in the OT is the classic scoundrel with a heart of gold. Bogart in Casablanca and all that. And the Kasdans simply explore his early years where his heart of gold was less buried. He was never an anti-hero.

 

Yeah in every way, shape and form, turning any of the OT3 into “bad parents” to blame them for and/or pity their homicidal offspring is throwing them under the bus. It’s also just really bad storytelling that lots of people simply don’t want to see, as @CT-867-5309 demonstrated above. This is why it’s not actually in any of the films. The only evidence for it is the whining of a narcissistic psycho before impaling a demonstrably good, loving, forgiving father.

Han didn’t end Solo as a hardened criminal. That didn’t happen. He ended Solo as a good guy that headed off to Tatooine for a job. I’ve given up on SW comics (and given recent data, clearly I’m not the only one), but somehow I doubt Han is depicted as a “cold blooded murderer” as some are stating (which is quite different from killing others “if necessary”).

I think he was in ANH, but they’ve done their darnedest to write that out of him. Han has some great true slimeball moments in that film. And I still think he shot first

 

Actually it's really not. You know why, because TFA tells us it outright. Kylo looks into her mind and says "And Han Solo, you feel like he's the father you never had. He would have disappointed you."





It's right there (from 1:55-2:05).

And yes, saying that Han was a bad father (and if we're bringing EU stuff into it, then NOTHING that's been published so far points to that besides Kylo's warp delusional mind), IS throwing him under the bus. "He was introduced as a scoundrel and a killer," well first of all him killing Greedo was a clear case of self-defense. Second, HE HAD A CHARACTER ARC!! Why do so many people seem to forget this? Han's whole thing in the OT was going from selfish rogue, to hero who would die to help his loved ones, it's all right there.

So again the ST keeps regressing the OT characters/forgetting the actual point of their stories, solely to make it's rehash premise work and prop up the newbies, and that's lazy and disrespectful.

 

He might have seemed that way at the beginning of ANH. But he put that facade to rest by the end of it.

ETA: I’m also a “Han Shot Firster.” But so what? He was facing a criminal who just said he was going to kill him. Greedo said, in effect: “I am going to shoot you now.” And so Han did what any reasonable person would do in that situation. And it doesn’t make him any more or less of a slimeball. He just didn’t feel like dying that day.

 

I think that he was selfish in ANH. He basically had to be bribed into rescuing Leia from execution. I just think that by the end of ANH, he had become attached to Luke and Leia and his dormant inner good nature started to re-emerge. And then that carried on throughout the next two films.

It's why I liked Tobias Beckett as a character actually, because he's a good example of what Han COULD have become if he hadn't had met and bonded with Luke and Leia.

 

If TLJ expects us to not view Han as a father figure for Rey, it is openly and unprofessionally treating its source material like trash that needs to be retconned. JJ wasn’t subtle about it.

 

Greedo was self defense.

It’s not like Luke had to work all that hard to get Han to go along, either. Then by the end of the first act of Empire, he’s risked his life for Luke and Leia.

But sure, he’s a slime ball, instead of his patricidal fascist son, who’s an anti-hero, right?

 

I think he was a sleezy slimeball in ANH, and I love him in that movie. It’s almost jarring how different he is in ESB, but it works for his arc. Han isn’t evil in ANH. He’s not, as someone said, a cold-blooded killer. He’s a small scale criminal that gets by working for mobsters and holding his own with them. He helped Leia in ANH for money. That’s the only reason. His interactions with Leia are hilarious in that movie because he’s a sleezeball.

 

I was reading all of the new canon until recently and as people have mentioned there is nothing about the OT3 being "bad parents" or bad anything in the canon so far. The ST asks us to believe that our heroes pretty much all of them have failed so utterly that 30 years later by the end of TLJ we are in a worse state than with the Empire that's really just a stretch IMO and I can't buy it. We also need to just accept what happens as it all happens off screen and with 0 exposition even so we are not even sure how it all happened... I am fine with having our characters fail and things not go there way but there was no need for this story that has essentially turned into a rehash of the OT except not as well executed. That's why I can't watch TFA and TLJ back to back not to mention I just can't sit through TLJ anymore period. The compressed time period is jarring and I really don't feel like the movies connect well at all when I look at the time span of a few days. If they wanted to tell a rehash of the OT they shouldn't have even planned to do episodes VII - IX they should have created episode VII and let us see the OT3 together one last time set the stage for the next trilogy and done VIII - X as the rehash and let it be its own thing maybe with some of the OT characters or not. The other option would have been to use the OT3 in seven but have them play more prominent roles while having them pass the torch in VII to the new characters and decidedly take a back seat for the rest of the trilogy. When I watch TFA I see a trilogy that is building somewhere and then I see TLJ which just kind of veers all over the place doing it's own thing not sure what it really wants to accomplish except let RJ be the one to kill of Luke then it drops the Mike and says good luck to the next guy. I get what the film wanted to do and I think you could have accomplished 90% of the film with some tweaks in such a way that the film wouldn't be so disliked among people that hated it. It makes me seriously question what the heck the LFL story group does....

 

I think both Lucas and Kasdan would be the first to say that Han doesn’t do anything for one, simple reason. He risks his neck far too much in ANH to only be motivated by money. He helps Luke and Leia, IMO, for a complicated mix of money, sympathy, lust and the thrill of adventure. And by the end, he shows that he actually gives a fig. He’s pretty much Humphrey Bogart from Casablanca. An apathetic grifter...until he isn’t. And his heart of gold was under there, all along.