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CT We can end this destructive conflict!

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Lord_Onveh, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. Lord_Onveh

    Lord_Onveh Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2009
    I was just thinking about this scene and Vader's words. So it got me thinking what this actually meant.

    "With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."

    What would combining strength with Luke do that combining strength with the Emperor couldn't? Or, why would this alliance end the destructive conflict more so than what the Emperor provides?

    I think that if Luke joins Vader, Vader fully expects him to do what Anakin did in Episode 3. He fully expects him to lead an army in on the Rebels and slaughter everyone there.

    Anyone see my train of thought here?

    Regards,
     
  2. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2013
    It could just be empty words on Vader's part. There's also the possibility that Vader would run the Empire smarter than Palpatine. The Battle of Endor was arguably Palpatine's biggest failure ever. He had the Death Star II, Death Squadron, a shield generator, Vader, a legion of his best troops, and he still lost.
    Perhaps Vader could end the Galactic Civil War quicker by playing smart. Vader was never a believer in the Death Stars.
     
  3. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Vader was leaking out something the Emperor himself had said--Luke could destroy both of them. From Vader's point of view, teaming up with Luke was more attractive than going down with the Emperor. However he is also trying to get Luke to the dark side here, so he is appealing to Luke's vanity by pointing out how very powerful he could become.
     
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Simple as this. Vader thinks he knows better than Palpatine. That's kind of part of being a Sith apprentice. You secretly think you're better than your master, you envy his power, and you want to take his place.

    Hard to say if he'd eschew the Death Stars though. The main reason he doesn't believe in them is because he fears they'll render him superfluous to the Emperor, who as of this point is only keeping Vader around because he's better than nothing. But if Vader himself were in a position to control the Death Stars... Personally, I think Vader would ultimately end up going down the same path of hubris and overreliance on technology that the Emperor did.
     
  5. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Maybe Vader thought if the hero of the Rebellion joined him he could make some minor concessions and to the leaders and co-opt the Rebel alliance.
    Either that or he genuinely thought they'd all come together and sing Kumbaya :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  6. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think he means with Luke they could end the Rebellion quickly and everyone would accept empire rule.
     
  7. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Vader does call the Death Star a "technological terror," but I think you're right: he probably would embrace some sort of technological-militaristic means of maintaining a totalitarian empire that wasn't quite so much overkill. Like, say, an army of heavily-armored droid stormtroopers specializing in the use of lethal force.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  8. Togruta

    Togruta Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2010
    You can read a whole lot of things in the "We can end this destructive conflict" speech, but even if Vader cares about ending the war and bringing about order, I think it's safe to say his other motives take precedence. Vader wants Palpatine dead, he wants to take his place, and have Luke on his side. And as someone else said, that's all obviously going to be more appealing to him than being stuck as Palpatine's second-in-command for the rest of his life. If those three things involved a prolonged war, I think it'd be worth it to Vader.

    As for the Death Stars, I don't think Vader's stance would dramatically change just because he was in charge. I never liked the theory that he only disliked the DS out of some petty jealousy and fear of being replaced as the Empire's "best weapon". I don't think he would flat out refuse to use it ever, but I think he genuinely didn't like the hubris and reliance surrounding it, and that he has a sort of love-hate regard for technology in general.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  9. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    I think it ties in to Anakin’s whole spiel in Episode 2 about how the best way to ensure peace in the galaxy is a benevolent dictatorship. He genuinely believes that if he were in charge he would make everything be fair and thus the only people who would be against this arrangement are the people who want things to be unfair in their favor. In his mind if he can just accrue enough power then these selfish individuals will either be smart enough to realize that it’s actually in their best interest to accept the same deal as everyone else or they will be dealt with accordingly. To this end Luke represents both a (potentially) more powerful and more loyal partner than Palpatine. I think he’s naive enough to believe that he can go to the Rebels and say “look, you guys had a problem with Emperor Palpatine, I got rid of him. You’re welcome. As you can see Emperor Vader has your back, no need for rebelling any more. You can all go home now and we can put this whole mess behind us. If you have any questions Luke here will be happy to deal with them. I know you guys like Luke so just listen to him and there shouldn’t be any problems. So yeah, quick recap: war’s over now, peace and prosperity for everyone courtesy of your good pal Emperor Vader, and once again you’re welcome.” and they would be on board with that. It goes back to his whole inability to accept that there are things in the galaxy that he can’t fix.
     
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  10. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    I guess we'll never know for certain what exactly Vader for hoping for. Luke jumped off the...whatever you call that thing...before Vader even finished his speech lol
     
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  11. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Luke jumped off the gantry. There's some sort of rocket there that presumably can fly up and out of the shaft for purposes we can only guess. We don't see any in motion but ancillary materials indicate there are craft that sometimes go up and down the tube, landing in the various lighted bays one can see looking down it.

    I remember the EU thrawn trilogy suggested Luke didn't believe Vader was serious, that it was a trick to get him to come along and he would then be brought to the Emperor. Of course that book says the Emperor somehow knew about this and thought it was serious. I don't want to divert this into an EU discussion, but to me I always thought the offer was serious.

    One of the things I got from the prequel trilogy, that I had sort of already believed but really seriously absorbed there was that Vader believed in the Empire. It wasn't just his instrument for being powerful; he really thought the rebellion was bad and that the Jedi were deluded, corrupt and hypocritically evil in their own way. This was all twisted around by the Emperor's influence, but he'd invested himself in removing the Jedi threat to what he considered a legitimate regime. That said, the opportunity to join with his son reopened an interest in usurpation. As with Luke's mother, the prospect of ruling the whole enchilada appealed to him in the sense of starting a dynasty. It would still be the Empire, though, a putatively legitimate continuation of the old republic.

    Even going back to Leigh Brackett's draft, the Sith perspective on the Force has always been that the Jedi are weak and immature ninnies, that accommodating and knowing the Dark Side represents a larger and more mature view of the Force. They have their own peculiar ethic about it too--and light siders are supposed to be dishonestly hiding their own powermongering under a veil of restrictive morality.

    This might be more than the question was meant to elicit, but I think this scene is really interesting in the classic trilogy, and it's a part where the prequels (if you accept them) add some deeper resonance as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
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  12. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    There was a deleted scene where the wind in the gantry pushed Luke upward, so Vader saw him raised on high, floating in the shaft for a moment, before dropping back down.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
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  13. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 6, 2019
    I think the offer was serious. Anakin believed in the legitimacy and purpose of the Empire (going by what he says in AOTC and ROTS), but he wanted vengeance on Palpatine and to rule the galaxy his own way. Luke would be particularly vulnerable to make this deal because the whole reason he was on Bespin was to save his friends, and thus making moves to end the whole war would guarantee their safety in the future.

    I see the offer as him attempting to convince Luke that the Rebellion has only brought war and pain to a peaceful galaxy, and if Luke and his allies lay down their arms, Vader can overthrow the Emperor and reform the Empire in his own image: the same justification he gave Padme on Mustafar.

    I think he honestly believed he could run a benevolent dictatorship, and that he could convert Luke to his side and get him to convince the Rebels to disband (or become an arm of the Imperial Military, as someone else suggested). In return, Vader would eliminate Palpatine, reinstate the Imperial Senate to appease the Alliance's political leaders, and decommission the Death Star program, since he never liked it anyway.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
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  14. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    And it goes back to his inability to accept that some people might not want a dictatorship, benevolent or not. To him, the problem was the corruption of the Senate and that would not do. The idea that people would rather choose that over a system of government where one person makes people do what he/she feels is fair for all the people is baffling. They want a Senate despite the corruption and flaws? It’s like hitting yourself with a hammer and going, “Ow, this sucks, but I won’t stop because I like hurting myself.”

    At least that’s what I get from his attitude about the whole thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  15. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    One thing some fans don't like but that I personally find interesting is getting a sense of what Empire supporters actually believe. Not to suggest that we as an audience should consider a similar ideology in real life of course, but just to get a perspective on how their philosphy and politics could have a certain logic or appeal in-universe. We know from the prequels that there is a certain amount of self-deception and reinterpretation that Vader uses to justify his loyalty to the Sith. Sidious actually tells him the Sith Order offers a life of conscience. I find this interesting, even though many people won't. I take a similar interest in the political platform later used to justify the First Order.

    We are told by the authoritative narration in text that the Empire is evil, the First Order is diabolical, and that the Trade Federation is greedy. However people in the GFFA might not always see things that way. It's interesting to me when characters in the films touch upon these things. Like the guy who called Han Solo scum probably never wondered if he was on the wrong side.
     
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  16. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2019
    I'm just now realizing that I didn't read this reply, and thus I ended up saying basically the same thing as you but not as good lol.
     
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  17. Elder74

    Elder74 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 3, 2020
    I am convinced that Darth Vader wanted to turn Luke because the Emperor was fully aware of Luke his upcoming power and saw him as a potential to either turn to the dark side. Vader was enslaved by the emperor and force lightning causes Vader his suit to disfunction. He needed Luke to destroy the emperor and by that free himself from the slavery Emperor Palpatine created to let Vader do whatever the Emperor demanded.

    if Luke combined forces with Vader, I don't think he could return to the light. He was still Darth Vader at that time. He would have turned his own son to the dark side. They would have ruled the galaxy both. The emperor would not be capable to face them both at the same time I think.

    There you go! My humble thoughts on this theory.
     
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  18. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 24, 2019
    Any post that agrees with me is a good post ;)
     
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  19. Elder74

    Elder74 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 3, 2020
    Have a like!
     
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  20. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 13, 2014
    For me, the line was Vader appealing to Luke's decency and his love for his friends, and compatriots. Vader is making the pitch that should Luke join him, he would end the war and spare his friends, and those he cares about. Luke, however, sees through the ruse and refuses.
     
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  21. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    I agree about the saving Luke’s friends aspect but I wouldn’t call it a ruse in the sense that from Vader’s point of view it’s a legitimate offer. He thinks once they overthrow Palpatine he can give the Rebels amnesty for betraying that Empire as long as they’re loyal to his new, better Empire and they will all agree because going back to farming or whatever is much better than dying in a dumb war. Everything will be great and everyone will be happy once the Skywalkers run the galaxy. Now of course that’s not actually true but in Vader’s mind it is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  22. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 13, 2014
    But it is a ruse in the sense he's selling it as a peaceful end to the civil war, but the reality is if Luke goes to the dark side and joins up, ending the conflict will be Vader and Luke combining their power to not only overthrow the Emperor, but to squash and eliminate the Rebels. I think Luke realizes Vader's true intent is to eliminate the Rebel Alliance.
     
  23. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 24, 2019
    Vader wants to get rid of the Rebels for sure, but that doesn’t necessarily have involve killing them. Vader thinks he can negotiate “not dying” in exchange for going back to being loyal citizens of the Empire, more specifically his Empire. He doesn’t understand why they’re so hung up on voting and checks and balances and silly things like that. He thinks he would make a better galactic overlord than Palpatine and once people see how awesomely he runs the galaxy there won’t be any need for a rebellion because everyone will be glad he’s in charge. Sure there might be a couple greedy troublemakers out there but he and Luke can put them down easily enough and everyone will be grateful to finally have galactic peace. Again, this is all in Vader’s head of course and not how it would actually play out.
     
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  24. themoth

    themoth Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Yep. He just wanted to move away from Palaptine. Vader/Luke would have been a much closer partnership. Vader was used to directing the military, as shown with his orders regarding approaching Hoth.
     
  25. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    This also opened the way for him to develop a kind of compassion and feeling for his son when he was supposed to treat him as a mere instrument, being a Dark Lord of the Sith. His bond with Luke is what cracked open the light side element remaining within him to reawaken a seemingly dormant inner conflict.