CT We can end this destructive conflict!

I thought Vader meant with their combined power they could bring a decisive end to the war and end the bloodshed and bring peace (under imperial rule). Even when he was Anakin he was concerned with ending the clone wars. "Now we could capture that monster and end this war" "I'm going there to end this war" "I think this war is destroying the principles of the republic" "If the Jedi are not all destroyed it will be civil war without end" etc. Vader always wanted peace through strength and order.

 

It think it's twofold. First, Vader wants to ultimately overthrow Palpatine, but he can't do it alone. So, he brings Luke in, supposedly to follow the Dark Side path and help take down the Rebels once and for all. In fact, the idea is that Luke & Vader will team up, then get rid of both the Emperor and the Rebels. Then, they can put things right for everybody, according to their own perspective of "right", without having to worry about a megalomaniacal con artist or a bunch of malcontented terrorists.
Second, Vader wants Luke to join him because it provides Vader with his absolute vindication. If he can convince his son to join the Dark Side, than obviously he (Ani) was right all those years ago when he chose that path. He wasn't a traitor; he was the true good guy. Right?
However, Luke realized that such a path led nowhere, and chose death over turning to evil. But, fortunately, things didn't quite work out the way anyone had figured.

 

For the longest time I interpreted that line simply to mean that Vader wanted Luke to join him so they really could rule the galaxy together. However, I've recently begun thinking about it from Vader's personal perspective as well. He already lost his mother in AOTC, then his wife in ROTS. The "destructive conflict" is not just Empire/Rebellion, in a sense it's destructive in terms of the personal loss Vader has already experienced and the further loss staring him in the face; he doesn't want to now lose his son too. Remember that right before this, Vader says, "don't make me destroy you." Part of me thinks there is some genuine honesty in that line.

 

It wasn't explored much, but in AOTC, Anakin expresses some dissatisfaction with the inefficiencies of democracy, opining that when people can't or won't see the wise path, they should be MADE to agree. When Padme says that sounds like dictatorship, Anakin says "if it works...".

It's possible that, like many villains, Vader didn't see himself as a villain. He'd bring peace and order, his way... and if you had to be crushed in the process, ah well, that's a shame. Even at the time of ESB, pre-AOTC, I thought there was a chance Vader actually believed what he was selling.

 

Vader clearly likes the idea of an Empire. After he saw what the Clone Wars did to the galaxy he was willing to grab the galaxy by the throat to prevent something like that from happening again. And then, at the end of EMPIRE, Vader is telling Luke that they should team up, kill Palpatine, and end the war. It's great!

And I also love that Luke is able to see the good in his father in this moment. The fact that Vader wants an Empire for GOOD, as opposed to what Palpatine wants it for, is a great lead-in to Luke's head-space in JEDI.

 

I have always thought Vader was maybe referring to the immediate destructive conflict between him and Luke.

i.e. He was saying “With our combined strength, we can bring order to the Galaxy” but when saying it, he slipped in the “we can end this destructive conflict” line to plead directly to Luke to stop fighting him as it was a waste of time.

 

Did Anakin ever fully give himself over to the Sith? I don't doubt he prepared to kill Palpatine and take his place, but was he really prepared for his apprentice to do the same? With Luke there was never any danger he would kill his father and take the throne for himself.

 

What an excellent post! Great writeup and analysis.

 

I've always thought he meant Rebels vs. Imperial conflict. He thinks if Luke goes to the dark side he can convince the Rebels to surrender.

 

I think there are many things going on within Vader. Within Anakin.

First, there may be an undercurrent there which is a direct plea to Luke. He doesn't want to fight his own son.

Something I also would note is that the description of what constitutes "justice" for Anakin in AOTC is actually a pretty good description of the Jedi Order from his point of view. They are led by someone powerful and wise (Yoda) and he solves the problems along with the council deciding. And what do Jedi do when people don't agree with their plans? Well, I guess it depends who you ask, but a harsh interpretation would be that the Jedi do whatever is necessary to bring about a solution. In other words -- the evil-doers "should be made to" find a solution. We do know that Jedi that go against the strict Jedi code are sometimes expelled or threatened with it in the old Order. I should say that I don't think Yoda would sanction this interpretation of the Jedi, but it's an interpretation of the old Jedi Order that could be made. And it's something that I think Anakin takes away from his experiences with them. Especially as a student of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, who have their own brand of shoot-by-the-hip justice (mind tricks and all).

This description of justice also fits Anakin's experience as a very young person in slavery, where he had a master who chose, good or ill, for what would happen to everyone else. And Anakin's vision of himself freeing the slaves is still in line with that -- one man, alone, coming in, and saving the day. I think that's his vision of justice and it is reinforced throughout his life.

Noteworthy in all this though is his plea for Luke to join him. All throughout Anakin's life, he seems to feel competent enough to save people, but I think unconsciously he doesn't believe himself competent enough to rule the galaxy alone. He offers to Padmé to join him. He offers to Obi-Wan (it is very brief but there are some lines in ROTS that indicate Anakin wants Obi-Wan to join him). And then he offers to Luke. He even implies that he would find Leia and get her to join him ("If you won't turn, perhaps she will"). Over and over he makes this offer. In two of those instances he offers to even overthrow the Emperor with them.

I think that comes from a psychological thing within him. Anakin is always looking to other people to complete him -- I think alone he doesn't feel strong. So this offer is also psychological.

 

This is also why Anakin in ROTJ has such a different demeanor in TESB and lets slip the Vader persona more and more. He thought Luke would think as he does and take the opportunity but when he was rejected, everything he had grown to believe in was challenged harder than ever before and forced him to reevaluate everything, from his own agency, his own fear and how it merely enslaved him in Sidious' shackles to begin with.

That's why he so frequently repeats the magnitude of the Emperor and the Dark Side's power and the supposed hopelessness of Luke's cause in the face of it.

 

This is also an excellent point. I really feel that Luke on some level presents a major challenge to Vader's worldview. Although Luke was taught by Obi-Wan and Yoda, and has some similarities to them, in the end he is probably a different kind of Jedi than Vader has ever encountered. He is a Jedi more like his (Luke's) mother. That itself would probably appeal to Vader but it's something that has been locked away inside him, nearly destroyed in fact, for a long, long time.

Also, words aren't enough to convince Vader -- in fact nothing does, until Luke refuses to kill Vader and throws away his lightsaber. This, in a single moment, shatters Anakin's conceptions of Jedihood. After all, from Anakin's point of view, he is not the one who betrayed anyone. Others betrayed him. As Anakin says in Revenge of the Sith, "It's not the Jedi way." He says it first about killing Dooku, then at seeing Mace try to kill Palpatine. That implies Anakin still has a standard of Jedihood that he holds himself to and he sees that as the difference between the Jedi and the Sith. But frankly Mace destroys that and after that Anakin says, well, Jedi and Sith are the same, might as well join the Sith to save Padmé.

But Luke is different. By throwing away his lightsaber with Palpatine right there, Anakin sees what Mace, Yoda, all the Jedi never showed him. Luke shows Anakin what being a Jedi is about, to really mean it, not to just say it and lie. Luke is willing to die to turn Vader back. And that must have sent shockwaves through Vader's mind. Not only Luke's actions, but the idea of turning back. That's possible?

And he doesn't have to ask for long. Because Luke is a living demonstrating of refusing the dark side, refusing Palpatine, refusing to kill. And so the story goes as we know...

Kind of a tangent but had to say it.

 

I think the reason why Vader changes from ESB to Rotj is because after Luke refused to join the dark side, he realizes he now has to kill him and doesn’t want to.