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PT Were the Geonosians part of the Corporations?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Deliveranze, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    One thing I've always been simultaneously fascinated, but also confused, by was the role of the Geonosians. Were they part of the separatist movement as legitimate members who felt they were oppressed or were they just another corporate entity looking for profits like the Federation and Techno Union.

    We see them build battle droids but sources say the Geonosian factories are property of the Techno Union. However, we clearly see they have their own culture and were all willing to watch Republic spies be executed for treason.

    Also, TCW implies that the Council was made up of corporations and the Parliament was made up of actual separatist senators. Yet, Poggle The Lesser had a position on the Council along with Po Nudo, who was just a senator.

    Any thoughts on what the Geonosians role are in the actual Separatist Movement? Also, a bigger question: Wouldnt actual separatists be suspicious about people like Nute Gunray and Wat Tambor, clearly part of the corruption from the Old Republic, being members of their movement?
     
  2. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    They say politics makes strange bedfellows.... and now that I think about it, I can't shake the idea of how revolting it would be to share a bed with Geonosians [face_sick]
     
  3. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    The Geonosians are the builders. They're a part of the Techno Union, and they're the ones who create the droid armies for the megacorporations. They're firmly part of the Separatist Alliance. What they get out of it is what all the megacorporations get out of it: profit.

    As for why the actual Separatists go along with this alliance, it's just as @Princess_Tina says: Politics makes strange bedfellows. Not to get too real world political, but why have we so often seen anti-corruption movements co-opted up by politicians who are funded by the very corrupt corporations they once claimed to be against? Does it really make any sense? Not really. Yet people always have always seemed to go along with it.

    It seems that the Separatists see the corrupt Republic as their enemy, but fail to appreciate the root cause of that corruption. So when they feel threatened, they turn to the only sources of money who are willing to side with them--and that's the megacorporations, who would be perfectly happy to see the Republic done away with completely so they can live in a laissez-faire capitalist's paradise. They don't care what the actual Separatists want. They're just taking advantage of them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  4. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I think they worked with the corporations like the trade federation to make the droids but that’s it
     
  5. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Chosen One star 9

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Well now I have an idea for a new trilogy!
     
  6. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 29, 2004
    They were being used by Dooku as an army of engineers. They also developed the Death Star concept, which was no doubt just simply stolen from them without any recompense. They were probably operating under the assumption that, should the Separatists win, they'd have prime choice in rebuilding.
     
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  7. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    It would be a worthy follow-up to the ST.

    And no Geonosians were ever seen again in a SW film after ROTS. Palpatine must have wiped them out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    On the Episode II DVD commentary, Lucas implies that the Geonosians are the ones who built the Death Star. That was the whole idea, they're builders. That's why they had the plans.

    He does tie it into a joke about the famous Clerks debate regarding Death Star contractors, but he also seems to be serious.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  9. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I would say the same. They had their resources, but they were not a corporation. Poggle and his background are shown in TCW. But I did like the idea of all these corporations and Geonosians being the providers of the battle droids. Nute Gunray is sort of the first among equals, since he is the most affluent. But Poggle and the Geonosians seem to have less authority on the Separatist Council. At least from what I recall from the EU. Each Separatist war leader had his or her own part to play in the war.

    Those later known as the Separatists were begging for blood before the war. What Sidious did was he took control of these anti-Republic factions in order to use them for the Grand Plan. A galactic war was inevitable, given how dysfunctional and bloated the Republic had become. The Sith simply used it for their own ends.

    Sidious was prepared to rule the galaxy whether the Republic or CIS won. But he preferred to become Emperor either way. That's why he handled both sides delicately.
     
  10. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    I think he exercised enough control over both sides to pretty much determine the outcome. As Sidious he controlled the Separatists. He could manipulate things any way he wanted.
     
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  11. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Interesting question. I think that to the galaxy Dooku was supposed to present the "idealistic" face of the Separatist movement: it's PR campaign, the narrative it wanted the public and everyday citizens on their planets to buy into, the idea that the Separatists under Dooku were going to secede from the Republic to create a government free of the corruption that they decry in the Senate. Like all lies, it has some seductive veneer of truth. The Republic Senate and courts as we learn in the PT are corrupt (which isn't to say every politician is corrupt--Padme and Bail, for instance, are the opposite of corrupt--but the institutions themselves are bogged in corruption and hindered by procedure) but the government the Separatists offer, rule by powerful corporations, is at least as shady if not more so, and, of course, even the government by corporation idea is something of a front and sham, given that the end goal is rule by the Sith.

    It wouldn't surprise me if perhaps some regular working Geonosians who perhaps feel unrepresented by the corrupt, distant Senate government believe these sort of "idealistic" lies spun by Count Dooku and his ilk, but Geonosis on the whole seems dominated by corporate interest. I have the impression that their economy is built around the manufacture and sale of battle droids, so I believe that the leaders of the planet would thus have an incentive to go to war and perhaps profit off the manufacture and sale of battle droids and other war equipment to the Separatists. Civil war is probably profitable to the Geonosians in a way that generation of peace as presided over by the Jedi wouldn't be. So, I believe beings like Poggle the Lesser are definitely motivated by base economic interests.

    If I recall correctly, I think the Geonosians were exploited to design and build the first Death Star in the way people are speculating in this thread. The New Canon Catalyst book by James Luceno touched on that issue a bit. I'd definitely recommend checking that book out; it has great scope.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  12. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    In both Rebels and in the novel Catalyst we see that, yes, the Death Star was built over Geonosis, by Geonosians. A large part of it at least. Once the hyperdrive was operational it was moved to another location and the Geonosians were then genocided by the Empire to near extinction. Only one Geonosian survived along with a queen egg, who later hatched but was sterile.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  13. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 29, 2004
    All I know is that, in Ep III, they gave Dooku the hologram design plans for the Death Star and he mentioned taking it to his master for safekeeping. Seems pretty obvious to me that they were just used. And, yeah, probably completely destroyed by the Empire.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  14. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    In legends, they weren't exterminated and some were basically assimilated by the Killiks IIRC.

    But in general the geonosians were good engineers(observe their sonic weaponry), and also were the originators of the Death Star concept. And I get the impression they had a good working relationship with the various CIS corporate bigwhigs. Poggle the Lesser was after all, part of the Separatist Leadership.
     
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  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    The Geonosians are manufacturers and aren't part of the Republic to begin with.

    As Poggle says "We build weapons, Senator... that is our business!"

    The only real Separatist in the AOTC meeting is Dooku. He's the one representing the separatist movement, and is seeking the help of corporations provide him the means to face the Republic.

    The factories are part of the Techno Union, but Geonosis is also a sovereign system. As Dooku explains, the Republic is not recognized in Geonosis. What they do with their factories is their own business and apparently they have no problem serving (or being a part of) the Techno Union.

    The Separatist leaders and the separatist parliament are two different things. The Separatist leaders, who form the Council, are war profiteers. To the separatist parliament, they are just the guys who are giving them the means to fight the Republic. But they are a primary Republic targets since if they capture them all, they can stop the separatist armies altogether and end the war.

    They aren't members of their movement. Dooku is. And Dooku, as the leader of the separatist movement, probably convinced the separatist parliament with some excuse to justify his treaty with the corporations (of which Gunray is one of). It's not clear how happy or unhappy the separatist senators are with the corporations backing their armies, but with the Republic having its own army, they probably won't mind as long as they keep their end of the bargain.
     
  16. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    The episode of The Clone Wars where the Separatist Parliament first appears gives us a great insight into how the Separatist senators view their movement:



    "This is a democracy, and unlike the Republic, corporations do not rule us."

    So we see it confirmed here very clearly that the reason the Separatists wanted to secede from the Republic was because of the corporate corruption which drove the plot of The Phantom Menace.

    We almost always see things from the Republic perspective, but the Separatists don't necessarily see things the same way. It must be remembered that both sides maintain a relationship with the corporations. And both sides believe the other is controlled by those corporations. In the end, were the Separatists any more wrong about that than the Loyalists?
     
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  17. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 13, 2014
    Both sides were pawns of the Sith. It's interesting how little we see Separatists fighting in the Clone Wars. It's mostly droids. Of course we don't see many Republic citizens fighting either, it's Clones and Jedi.
     
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  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    True, but in both cases the Sith are colluding with the corporations to manipulate events. They used the corporations' greed as a tool to bring about their conquest of the galaxy.

    But yeah, it's all clones and droids. The average citizens on either side don't seem to be taking much of a direct part in the war. But that's very similar to how major countries wage wars today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  19. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Those Sith lords... always colluding with the slime of the universe... [face_plain]
     
  20. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 13, 2014
    The Clone Wars series worked towards showing us that individuals and entire worlds were being drawn into the war and forced to fight. The series was also showed that as the conflict went on the different corporations were also forced to pick sides. The Galactic banks come under direct control of the Republic and Chancellor. The corporations that backed Dooku on Geonosis also had to pick sides. At some point the Trade Federation would have lost their represenative in the Senate. So by the time we get to Revenge of the Sith groups like the Trade Federation are actually part of the Confederacy of Independant Systems. This is all part of Palaptine's plan to seize the most amount of power once he is Emperor.

    I don't know if the CIS parlement was still in place by the time we get to Revenge of the Sith. Dooku on the Clone Wars worked directly with them. Once Dooku is killed we only see General Gervious interact with Darth Sidious and the Corporation heads.
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I would assume the Separatist Parliament is still around, otherwise I don't think Padme would openly wonder whether she was on the wrong side. But as we see in The Clone Wars, the Parliament is kind of a joke and doesn't wield any real power, so it wouldn't really be necessary to show them being dealt with.

    What I personally wonder is how San Hill fits into everything. Despite the Banking Clan's neutrality, San Hill seems to be firmly aligned with the Separatists by the time of Revenge of the Sith, as much a fugitive as anyone else on the Council. Was he in a similar situation to Nute Gunray, where he was essentially the leader of a splinter faction of the Banking Clan? We unfortunately never see him in The Clone Wars, so we don't get any clarity on this point.

    There are some slight oddities like that here and there, and some people seem to think it's because the neutrality of the megacorporations was a retcon, but if you read the second draft of Attack of the Clones you can see that the idea was there from early on:

    SHU MAI

    The Commerce Guilds do not at this time wish to become openly involved. But we shall support you in secret – and look forward to doing business with you.

    There are chuckles around the table. COUNT DOOKU smiles.

    COUNT DOOKU

    That is all we ask.

    SAN HILL, the banker, stands.

    SAN HILL

    The Intergalactic Banking Clan will support you wholeheartedly, but only in a non-exclusive arrangement.

    For whatever reason, this wasn't made very clear in the prequels themselves. It's not totally necessary to the trilogy's story to know all this, but it does make sense of a lot of things, and it makes the story more thematically coherent.
     
  22. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Yes. And the Clone Wars shows that these companies and organizations are still working with both sides. The Trade Federation even denounced Nute Gunray as an extremist not connected to them. (not officially)

    That make sense. Especially after The Banks are federalized by the Republic and under the direct control of the Chancellor. At that point San Hill and maybe other member of the now ousted banking clan would be force into picking sides publicly.

    I believe I read or heard in a commentary the plan on The Clone Wars was to transition the Trade Federation from playing both sides at the start of the war to being part of the Separatists by the battle over Corusant. My hunch is Palapatine played some trick to force their hand similar to how the Republic got control of the Banks.

    I wish we knew better the political state of CIS at wars end. I could see the Republic capturing the Raxus and the Sepertist Senate. That could leave the Separatist Council and it's captains of industry to fill the power vacuum. This sort of thing would happen in the waning days of The Clone Wars.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    That's a good hunch. After all, Palpatine needs a good excuse to nationalize them after war's end.

    Another thing I'm interested in is how entities like the Mining Guild fit in. The way it's talked about it seems like it was supposed to indicative of a Dune-type situation where a bunch of megacorporations exist with a limited amount of autonomy from the Empire due to their institutional power. This is further supported by the rough draft of TESB where a major subplot revolves around Han recruiting just such a megacorporation to the fight against the Empire.

    I think the line the EU took was that the megacorporations which still exist in this capacity during the OT-era were the ones which stayed loyal to the Republic during the Clone Wars. So these were the ones whom Palpatine wasn't able to manipulate into eventually siding with the Separatists, which meant he couldn't nationalize them quite yet. That would explain why Lucas conspicuously failed to include the Mining Guild in the bevy of corporate entities he used to populate the Separatist Council.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, Dooku's decision to leave the Jedi and form the separatist movement is legitimate. He did believe that the Republic was corrupt and not worth serving or being part of. And those who followed his movement also believed that as well.

    But speaking of the corporations, they aren't really the cause of corruption. The corporations are assets. It's the senators who ignore their oath of service towards the people they represent, and decide to indulge their selfish greed, that breeds corruption. And in order to do that, they turn to the corporations for easy money/favors. The corporations, being amoral, apolitical and serving no one but themselves (they probably would serve their customers if they hadn't a comfortable governmental relationship), return the favor with no problem. And this is not really a secret. I mean, the Trade Federation has a seat and voice in the senate. That's explicit to everyone, and the people of the Republic apparently don't care. For things to have reached this point, it means it's not a recent problem.

    So the separatists don't really have a beef with the corporations, but with the significant amount of corrupt politicians within the Republic. And Padmé even explains in AOTC why the separatist would seek the corporations:

    "Do you see any way through negotiations to bring the Separatists back into the Republic?"
    “Not if they feel threatened. My guess is they’ll turn to the Trade Federations or the Commerce Guilds for help.”


    Dooku wouldn't even need to justify himself on why he sought a treaty. The corporations had what they needed to defend themselves. And if the Republic was discussing the creation of an army, they would need to defend themselves. Of course we viewers know that Dooku, the Sith lord, planned to attack the Republic. But to the separatists, he was seeking the means of defense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  25. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 13, 2014
    I think the corporations serve their shareholders and the quest for greater profits. That's what motivates them. Money. Wealth. But they are are cowards. They are far more scared to loose what they have than stick their necks out too far getting more. They'd of never been a part to civil war if weren't for the Sith laying out what was to gain in simple terms and tempting them with great profits. But it was a deal with the devil.