ST Were you disappointed that Rey and Finn's relationship never became anything romantic?

I think Finn *can* stand out, even to supporters of the overall ST at times, because there’s such a noticeable difference between the ambition and centrality of focus he has in TFA versus the other two films and supporting material... and that for those more critical of the ST, it’s also apparent how bad everyone is the more you compare and contrast Finn and his relationships with the other characters.

I mean, pretty much no one argues for Finn’s story in TLJ and TROS should be counted in the best parts of those movies, while it’s hard to argue successfully that his TFA story and relationships weren’t a concensus highlight of TFA. People can obfuscate about Rey, Kylo, or Luke being used well and in character because what praise TLJ or TROS gets will usually involve them somewhere, even if they clearly aren’t lined up with TFA or as successful as some supporters hope... but with Finn, the drop off is hard to deny.

(I’d say that’s also why you see some TLJ defenders seem to retroactively denigrate and demote Finn in TFA - he can’t really suffer a drop-off if he was never that high to begin with. It’s just hard to take that argument seriously because it requires blatant double standards.)

And I think that it can be easier to diagnose what’s wrong with other characters by looking at them in relation to Finn: Rey is clearly being written less intuitively and believably away from Finn and Kylo is clearly more being misinterpreted than changed because of how everything that made him a good foil for Finn is now being downplayed.

In example, the more aware you are of Finn’s TFA peak, and the more likely you are to see TFA as the ST’s peak... than it can be obvious that Kylo isn’t as substantial or engaging a male lead as Finn, and that while you can see where a romantic relationship could organically spring from Rey and Finn’s emotionally intimate and believable platonic bond in TFA, there really isn’t anything like that with Rey and Kylo in the other films... nor is there anything like that with Finn and his two main love interests.

 

And I feel that's a somewhat inaccurate assessment - it wasn't that it had dried up or been overshadowed by some other relationship for the characters... it was intentionally countered, dismissed and "fought against" by LFL through TLJ and TROS, and primarily for an anemic and one-way relationship between Rey and Kylo that favored him at *everyone* else's expense... but especially Rey and Finn as individual characters and as even a platonic relationship together.

It seems pretty clear that Rian Johnson's main goal regarding Rey and Finn was ensuring their bond was effectively non-existent in his film, likely because he didn't want to risk even a possible comparison of Ridley and Boyega's proven and universally accepted chemistry against his version of Rey and Kylo's relationship - yes, I'm accusing Johnson of having writing insecurity about the main relationship he was writing, because I think he's too good to be entirely unaware of the weakness in Rey and Kylo's interactions.

And TROS seems to have been a film made under duress regarding Finn and Rey - it sounds like LFL didn't even want a purely platonic scene between the two characters alone, like they almost want Poe present in all those scenes to make sure that at no point do we think of Finn and Rey as a pair of characters.

 

Exactly.

You don't necessarily need to plan out the plot if you know and understand the characters.

But if you don't know or understand the characters, it won't even really matter what the plot is.

Almost any of the actors and directors could have made a single or couple of really good romances - the kind that everyone likes, not just romance fans - and instead they basically set up several diametrically opposed possibilities that poisoned the characters.

 

I can get the argument as well... I just regard it as too weak to cast the blame for *that* issue at Abrams and Kasdan’s feet.

Han got frozen in carbonite with a genuine chance Ford might not make the comeback, and remained the romantic lead in ROTJ.

And I absolutely despise the “plot device” argument; Finn had a character arc, and Boyega himself has expressed confidence in Abrams’s intent and execution in TFA, and I think trying to make that argument even as hyperbole runs the risk of acting more as a justification for the unjustifiable - replacing Boyega as the male lead with Driver.

I’ll also be blunt and say I don’t think the supremacy of Rey in the story was ever really a bad thing in TFA - it was supposed to be her story, ultimately - and I think it was more than compensated for in a functional way in TFA because Finn was the far more active and dynamic protagonist. Overall, TFA’s portrayal of Rey and Finn was more of a “screen partnership” that benefitted both characters, rather than a simple “sidekick” set-up.

I tend to think that, since Abrams and Boyega clearly stated, felt, and defended Finn as a second protagonist in TFA, and since Boyega has firmly stated his POV points towards LFL for Abrams not bringing him back to that status in TROS... Finn in TFA was objectively the second protagonist, and not meant to be just a decoy at all.

I tend to stand with Boyega in feeling there was a change started by TLJ, and enforced afterwards by LFL, that was not present in TFA.

See, the thing to me is that when I look at the ST, O don’t think it makes a coherent retread the way the concept would be executed... because the ST doesn’t put the ST characters in the right place for the retread.

In TFA, Rey is “The Luke”, Finn is “The Han” mixed with “The Leia”, Kylo is “The Vader”, Han is “The Obi-Wan”, Poe is “The Wedge” and Luke is set up as “The Yoda”... but by the time TROS rolls around, Rey is forced into splitting “The Luke” role with Ben, “The Han” is split between Ben (as the romantic lead) and Poe (everything else), and Leia is stuck in “The Yoda” role in spite of having limited time, while what’s left of Kylo as “The Vader” is at odds with Ben’s new roles, and Finn is “Man With No Purpose By Order Of LFL.”

And that’s partially because TLJ just had Luke be “The Luke... But Sad and Pathetic!”, Kylo is apparently “The Anakin”, Poe is “The Han we need to deconstruct!”, Rey is “The Padme... And something to be used for The Luke and The Anakin, but she can be something later!” and Finn is “Baggage from the last movie.”

I think that if they meant to “shove these characters into the OT story”... that works out very differently depending on which characters you realize can be shoved into what roles. Kylo basically couldn’t fit any role besides The Vader, but they kept on trying, Rey got lost in the shuffle of TLJ at The Luke’s most important story element, and honestly, Finn was the only real character who could be hammered into the romantic lead role of The Han if they wanted Rey to be The Leia a bit as well, while he also filled better in the other areas of The Han role if they wanted him to.

But for the purposes of this thread especially... if you really wanted to shove in an OT-level romance, Finn and Rey were a lot more intuitive than other options, especially if Finn was still the clear deuteragonist.

 

That’s what I had in mind for them, something like the setup for Hera and Kanan, although I don’t think it necessarily takes years. It could take months, which would have been in the time frame for the ST.

Now I think it would take years, because I don’t think Finn should be willing to forgive Rey so quickly for losing her brain for Kylo.

 

Well, from a functional standpoint, it would immediately elevate and ensure Finn in a more prominent role; as a Finn fan, that’s an automatic win for me, and since it would prevent any attempt to mix up Kylo’s antagonistic roles with a poisonously misguided attempt to make him a romantic lead, it would help Rey and Kylo as well. There’s also the fact that Rey and Finn have no poisonously assault-y history between them; normally, it wouldn’t matter that much as a factor, but when the main alternative offered up by LFL was Kylo, well, it becomes a benefit because it’s not promoting a toxic and abusive relationship.

Now, I myself would argue that, flat out, both characters were successful when acting as the primary duo in TFA; they both became immensely popular, won critical, commercial, and fan acclaim in that film. So even just maintaining the platonic connection between them without being scared of it (like Rian Johnson and LFL was) is a benefit to them.

But following through on a romantic element would simply enforce Rey’s TFA-era “found family” even more, and because that would elevate their investment in the heroic story, lift even Rey up a bit by giving her a more personal stake in fighting against the First Order.

And finally, it would streamline the story - because Rey and Finn would now share more screentime and story arcs, there’s less of an immediate need to keep their plot separate, and it even gives the films an excuse to merge Kylo back into an antagonist of Finn again (which also worked in TFA.)

Now to be honest, most of that would just come from writing a positive romance between major characters in a Hollywood movie. But that was always the inherent appeal of the pairing to its ‘shippers - its the softball-pitch to home-run hit in terms of difficulty.

 

...Yeah, this sounds like a lot of misplaced infantilization for a former child slave soldier who has enough conscience and bravery to break free of his brainwashing.

Also, all “beta male/alpha male/whatever” commentary is total bupkis; it’s frat-boy “psychology” unworthy of respect or serious consideration.

However, I do think there is something be argued here about what Rey would get out of it.

Firstly, a major issue with the argument is that Reylo is simply going to be worse than any other option, at least as portrayed by Johnson and LFL. That’s going to skew a lot of arguments both ways: literally any other romantic option for Rey rises in comparison, while people who don’t like that point will degrade any alternative to protect Reylo.

But secondly... there’s something to be said for whether or not Rey would benefit from a bit of a “reverse-stereotype” romance or if she should go celibate. The celibacy argument is one Star Wars fans have had before - there’s a lot of philosophical arguments for and against, and a general fact that most fiction writers will inevitably ignore it for the sake of drama. But more than that, there’s an argument to be made that having Rey carry the more “traditionally male” part of a romance, with greater impact on the main story and greater martial efficacy, could be progressive and useful for pushing her as a groundbreaking character for Star Wars.

But beyond that... Finn is a better man than a great many other characters in Star Wars. And he’s a lot like Han in his charisma and humor, but less “creepy because of the time the film was made” type of invasive.