Discussion Speculation What Changes Would You Like To See In the New Jedi Order?

dp

 

Haha I'm not talking about athletic wear like from the 90s. No Under Armor and sneakers here please. But more like in the images I showed. (two of which are from SW concept art). Think Luke's tunic in ROTJ, but maybe a little more streamlined. Or SW Space-aged. Less flow-y robes.

And second, being neutral to a political organization or not aligned with a particular political entity, is NOT the same thing as being neutral to evil. I would think you would know the difference to that. The Jedi partially failed because of their strict allegiance to a Republic that did things it should NOT have done for far too long. They were devoted to protecting something that actually led them away from their ideals. They Jedi did things they shouldn't have done as well, including becoming soldiers and warriors for this Republic even though that went against their beliefs. And yet they also lived in their ivory tower, far above the masses, and were far too connected to politicians that they themselves (at least according to OWK) were not to be trusted.

That's the neutrality I'm thinking about. Maybe the Jedi don't live on the Capital World any longer and don't align themselves with any particular group. Not yet anyway. They seek to do good. They work to help those who need it. They follow the Force. And a little less of what we just saw the already failing NR do in Mando, which is we can't help because you didn't sign a piece of paper owing allegiance to the NR.

 

I think that there’s probably a middle ground between being politically neutral and being incredibly involved in Republic affairs. They should still have allegiance to the Republic but they shouldn’t necessarily be actors for the Republic. More of an agreement that they will uphold the laws of the Republic and act as their sheriffs within the state, but that they are also permitted to be free actors beyond the Republic.

 

That's fair. But that still relies on a Republic being just in the first place. And they seem to have trouble doing just that. We just saw in Mando that the NR has immediately become overly bureaucratic (to the point of being blind and allowing evil to happen under their noses) and wouldn't help people in need because they didn't technically sign up with the NR. If the Jedi have an agreement with the NR, to uphold their laws and act as sheriffs, then that could also bar them from interfering in such matters as "don't help planet X because they didn't sign up to the NR and doing so against our laws".

See? Is that following the Force or is that following the Republic? That immediately puts them in a bind. The same kind of bind that got them fighting wars that they shouldn't have been even fighting.

If the Jedi have more than one agreement with any number of political organizations that makes them more neutral and able to function as they see fit, or as the force tells them, and less so how any one political org wants them to act.

 

I really liked Rey’s outfit in TLJ after she leaves Luke. That was pretty Jedi like.

Put a Jedi robe on her and it’s perfect.

 

Perhaps the New Jedi Order could take inspiration from the Guardians of the Whills. Chirrut’s outfit is unbeatable in the Disney SW era. If that drives the aesthetic, we’ll be in for a visual treat. Nothing in the ST even comes close to the awesomeness of this outfit (the layers, the sash and belt combo, the cut, the different shades of color, the little techno-details like the vambrace), barring perhaps Kylo Ren's TFA outfit with the hood, which competes.

 

I do like the top half, minus the tech/armor. The texture and stitch padding in the tighter jacket is interesting. It reads very Samurai-ish. The red splash of color is also nice. I think they could lose the skirt part and just have baggy pants cut at the knee with high boots.

 

Nah. The skirt and the baggy pants that go down to the ankles is part of what I like about it. Lose the skirt and cut the pants off at the knees and it gets top-heavy and unbalanced. Frankly, I think it's the most perfect costume design of the Disney era, and is at the top in the whole franchise. It just has that McQuarrie-level design genius about it. Question. Did Doug Chiang design Chirrut? I know he was lead designer on Rogue One, but I don't know if Chirrut was his. Probably!

Anyway, I hope the Rey film looks to the outfit as an example of how interesting Jedi-like wear could be. Still humble, but not boring.

 

I feel like Rogue Jedi would just lead to so many more problems. You're basically setting up an official group of Jedi force uses who aren't meant to follow any rules other than their own. It almost feels like the CIA, or spies doing clandestine **** that nobodies hears about lol. ,It also seems like that could easily lead to freelancing for the highest bidder. (which isn't a bad concept for a group of Force users, just not the Jedi)

I begin to wonder if the Jedi almost need to be their own state. Unaffiliated with anyone, living on Ahch-to or where ever. And when the NR, or the Mandos, or any system needs their help, they provide it on the merits they choose, or by listening to the force. They could have Jedi reps living or stationed in those states to offer immediate help if needed. They could have Jedi that just wander around the galaxy helping as needed as well. Obviously the Jedi would also probably want to protect those states that are democratic, but maybe they'd want to help those that aren't, or are oppressed.

EDIT: Damnit @Bor Mullet you're gonna make me dig out my 2010 Wacom tablet that's been in storage for a decade and download drivers for it so I can do some concept art lol.

 

Dewit!

 

Well, no, they wouldn’t necessarily need to not help others because they’d act for the Republic as sheriffs, since I also noted that their arrangement could be that they can also be free actors beyond the Republic (I.e. they don’t represent the Republic beyond its borders so as to not cause international incidents).

But also I don’t necessarily think the NR is just refusing to help because that system hadn’t joined the Republic. We see the NR as being stretched thin and justifiably that planet goes to be back of the queue (I don’t really think there is a good argument to be made that NR systems shouldn’t be given priority to non-NR systems).

Being guardians of peace and justice in the Republic is part of what we’ve known of the Jedi since the beginning. They upheld this for 20 millennia. I don’t think it’s justifiable that they now wouldn’t do that with authority from the Republic government (which raises all sorts of worse problems of the Jedi doing what they do without the Republic endorsing it).

 

What society would allow their sheriffs, who are there to enforce their own laws, to act as free agents for other governments with different laws? If a sheriff's department is working (ie: part of the government administration w elected officers no less) for a county in Texas and and also freelancing for county across the border in Mexico, that's going to be quite complicated...and fast.

The point you bring up with the NR is exactly why the Jedi should be more neutral. The NR has already been compromised by the former Imperials, and due to high levels of insane bureaucracy, or even economics, now refuses to help those in need who are under attack by criminal pirates. The reason given though was that the Nevarro didn't sign up, so they can't / won't help, even if they could. It would appear that the NR can't protect the galaxy as is, or even as the Old Republic once did (obviously w the Jedi's help).

If the Jedi were under contract/charter by the NR, they would either be forbidden to help in the way they want, or have to break the NR's laws in order to do so. What happens next time, when it's not just paperwork or economics? What happens when the system in need has political differences with the NR or vise versa? It's asking for more trouble in my view. And would inevitably lead the Jedi to be set up in the same crap that enveloped them during the PT, or have to break away with the NR in order to what they believe is right, or what the Force demands of them.

The NR isn't what the OR was. For thousands of years it worked quite well, but that galaxy - or that refined political system - doesn't exist anymore. So until the NR can function in a healthy manner, or isn't infiltrated by Imperials seeking to bring it all down, or have them do evil under the table, the Jedi should stay away. Or at least not work solely for them as their 'sheriffs'. The Jedi shouldn't just be protectors of a political body just because that's what they did in the past. If the polticial system wants Jedi protectors, then they need to get their act in order first.

 

I think you’re taking the sheriff thing too literally. They are sheriffs in the sense they have the authority to enforce Republic laws. There would be an actual law enforcement agency which the Jedi would assist when needed, but they could also leave Republic territory to assist in the ‘badlands’ or another state which wants their assistance. These situations would be more akin to the borderlands of the 17th century, rather than the 21st, but yes, since they are tied to the Republic (something which Obi-Wan doesn’t lament notably) it could cause a diplomatic incident I suppose.

It’s certainly a lot less complicated however than Jedi upholding peace and justice with no authority from the government. One of the main features of the Jedi is that they believe in a democratic government. They shouldn’t just be going around dispensing with their own sense of justice if it goes against what an actual democratic government says is the law.

That’s simply not what we see. We see them want to help but then note that because they aren’t a member that they can’t be given priority above NR members. It’s a case of the NR being swamped (partly due to their stupid demilitarisation) and non-members going to the back of the queue.

I think you’re kind of moving the goal posts a bit here. No one is saying that the Jedi should serve a corrupt or unjust system. The discussion is whether the Jedi should be apolitical or neutral. We’re not discussing the NR we saw in TM because they don’t exist anymore (as far as we know), and a new entity or entities will form in its place.

I don’t think the lesson of the PT is that the Jedi should stop abiding by the next Republic’s laws and just enforce peace and justice ad they think it should be done (or, I guess, alternatively just not uphold peace and justice until they are satisfied the government has its stuff together). That is the equivalent of the Jedi just becoming the rulers themselves because they don’t trust anyone else to do it. They should be wary of if the next government, but they should still maintain their mission. If the government is not legitimate they should have a role in making sure it becomes legitimate and representative. But they shouldn’t overcorrect to just become a law unto themselves.

The biggest problem is that if you have a situation where the Jedi just ‘do what they think is right’ you’re risking the messaging of the franchise becoming that governments don’t work and that unelected people with immense power should uphold peace and justice as they see fit.

 

But if the system is corrupt (especially one that's already infiltrated by Imperials, bureaucracy, etc) why should the Jedi align themselves with that organization, even if it calls itself democracy?

I get that the sheriff thing is just a metaphor here, and not an exact mirror ... but the problem still exists. The OR basically ruled most of the galaxy, as well as the colonies, etc, and the Jedi were its sworn protectors. There were parts that weren't part of the OR, but they were fewer than in the current era. The Jedi could basically help all and still work within the OR Galactic system. The NR is far smaller in nature. The galaxy is fractured. And we now see that many systems want to sign up, but are on a waiting list, and some just refused. And so the NR can't or won't help those systems. Whether it makes sense or not, the point is is that the galaxy isn't unified, and the NR clearly draws a line about who it can and won't help. In the case with Nevarro, they may have wanted to help, but still did not. What happens next time when the problem exists in a system that the NR doesn't want to help for political reasons. The Jedi who are the NR's sworn protectors won't be able to just jump over the line and help anyway, as that would defeat their sworn oaths to protect the NR and the NR alone, above all others.

So again, I refer back to the idea that the Jedi should be more neutral, learning lessons from the Saga. Not neutral to evil, just to political organizations. They should almost be above it all. They help as the see fit. They protect the galaxy and all its peoples. They follow the force. Not some Supreme Chancellor or corrupt democratic body that they find themselves trapped to protecting because of their oaths and allegiances. Palpatine basically ripped the galaxy in half and showed what happens when the Jedi are working for one side. He used the very system against them, until he declared them traitors. Does the force also only work for one side? Does the force not want the Jedi to help those not in the NR?

And 'messing' with the idea that governments don't work is already happening in Mando. Unfortunately the story sorta demands of it to get to the ST. But just because the Jedi take a more neutral stance, and don't align with just one government, doesn't automatically lead to all governments are bad or don't work. As long as the galaxy is made up of many governments, and not just one BIG ONE as the OR was, the Jedi should be somewhat more neutral.

 

I'd like to see the galaxy as the wild west, and Jedi as Lone Ranger(s).

 

Id say thats what the Jedi are in the Empire era already.

I mean its clear many survived order 66 and appear here and there

 

Again, you’ve run into the far bigger problem that if the Jedi are not aligned and authorised by a political body (or many) then the Jedi are just upholding their own law. This brings up questions of why the Jedi inherently know better than a democratic government. The Jedi are also prone to mistakes and injustice, only there is no accountability for them. They would effectively be ruling as lords over people, no matter how benevolent they may be.

I don’t see why the Jedi can’t have authority to work for several states? Why must their allegiance just to be with the NR (which, again, we don’t know in what form it will take after the ST). If there is a dispute between states they either take a neutral position or defend the state they believe to be wronged, or if a government becomes corrupt or illegitimate they help those who are trying to change that until they become more legitimate.

I do think that after a while the messaging of the films will become that no government can be trusted and it’s up to vigilantes to dispense justice. The messaging of the franchise should be that you should be wary and skeptical of government, and if it becomes tyrannical or incompetent that you should oppose it, but not that you should become neutral and unaligned and become a law unto yourself.

 

Glyn Dillion designed the costume for Chirrut.

 

They should just have no central galactic government when the timeline moves forward. Just various regional, planetary and local governments.

IMO that will make for a more rich and varied story telling environment.

 

Because it doesn't work that way. Why would Jedi working for Texas, be allowed to also work for Mexico when their rules and political systems and goals run counter to each other? Each state wouldn't allow it because they would want the Jedi solely looking out for their own benefit. And if they're under charter to do so, the Jedi have to adhere to those laws and rules of that state, corrupt or not, even if and when it goes against what the Force wants. Too bad Mexico. Tough nuggets. That doesn't automatically equal all government is bad. It just means that the Jedi can't obey the Force and obey any one politician or government at the same time. What this is trying to do is make government work better, not less.

I've been thinking about it. I think 'neutral' may be the wrong word here. It's not communicating the intended concept. They Jedi aren't neutral in the sense that they won't help, or ally themselves with a given government. What I think might be more clear is ... independent.

The Jedi should be independent. Or at least more so than they have been. I'm thinking maybe the galaxy needs a separation between 'church' and state. The Jedi can adhere to the laws of whatever system they decide to help, or those who ask for their help should they determine to give it, when those laws don't run counter their own rules or adhering to the will of the Force. No one system should have "ownership" or supreme allegiance to the Jedi Order, or the Force. Unless of course you think we should have entirely different force orders in every single government. Which would eventually see force orders fighting each other rather quickly.

In a galaxy that was largely a one-system of government, this mattered not. But in a post Separatist, post Empire, post New Mandalore Empire kind of galaxy, where there are many different political organizations, and countless independent systems that may not be aligned with any New Republic or central government ... a new system for the Jedi to operate under is needed.

And yes, the Jedi are prone to mistakes as well. Which is exactly why they shouldn't be aligned to just one political body, or given power to protect one single entity when there are many. Especially one like the NR which was immediately infiltrated by Imperials, heavily bureaucratic to the point of almost non-functioning, strictly pacifist to the point that it couldn't defend itself, and destroyed within 30 years all on one fateful night. (But hey, at least they lasted longer than the New Jedi Order did lol). If they align themselves with that kind of NR, they become corrupt just as quickly.

So maybe the Jedi are their own system. They can have temples in various systems that they've aligned with, but are under no contract or charter to help only one government out above the rest. They then become actual peacekeepers. Peace for all the galaxy not just one government.

 

So... the NJO as NGO.