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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga What Do We, As Star Wars Fans, Actually Want Star Wars To Be About and Should the Saga Continue?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Plan741, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Plan741

    Plan741 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    I don't think the story group and current directors put the kind of thought into it like posters here may have. I believe they find SW interesting and it is certainly good for their careers to work with the franchise. But they don't strike me as having ate, slept and breathed the content. While I find Luke Skywalkers late development very entertaining, his actions don't add up. For someone who championed the redemption of one of the most evil of Sith Lords 30 years before, he actually pondered killing Ben for actions he had yet to commit. We are expected to accept this and thus why Ben turned to the dark side, but that doesn't jive either. Kylo insists on wiping away the past, very intently. But what was the past for him? We know nothing about that, really.

    Luke was said to have walked away from the force and the Jedi. Why, then, did he not go to Canto Bight and bet on races in his retirement? Why hunt for the first temple and moreover, why take up residence safeguarding the ancient texts? Further, why program R2 with the other half of the map if he intended not to be found if needed? He was adamant that he did not want to be found or asked to return. That's like calling 911 for an ambulance and then insisting you don't need help when they arrive.

    But as posters above have noted, there is quite a bit of nihilism in TLJ. All the big reveals turn up empty. We learn that Reys parents don't matter, that Snoke is irrelevant, that the quest for Skywalker (it was so urgent to find the map and therefore Luke in TFA) wasn't going to change anything. The side quest to get the code breaker wasn't needed in the end. Yoda said the ancient texts weren't really vital to the understanding of the force. Anakins lightsaber was worth digging up and squirreled away. It called to Rey and now, is broken. We met Phasma and said goodbye, likewise with Han and Luke, both who had a relationship with Ben that was complicated, though we don't know anything more than that. What was the aim here? What is or isn't important between the two films?

    If the format here was indeed intentional on behalf of RJ, then the only spiritual message must be the notion of impermanence. Have no attachment and you have no suffering when things are taken away. Value nothing and you will never experience loss.
     
  2. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    @WebLurker Nice reply. I'm not going to respond to the points of differing views as I think they are exactly that. However, I do like your responses and think they make good points.

    The "War" comment is also Snoke's dialog in Trailer 2 however we have established reading too much into the trailers was not time well spent.

    Something that does stand out is I think the way viewers responds to Kylo makes a big difference. If you like his story development then it really changes your view of the movie. I came into TLJ more interested in Rey, I lost that but then didn't gain it for Kylo. That left an emptiness in the story after the Luke arc, which didn't work for me.

    I love talking about it all as well. Something I have been frustrated about as I feel you can question choices about TLJ and how it fits into the larger saga with getting tagged one way or another.

    @Plan741 Post above is spot on. =D=
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
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  3. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Won't happen for a long while yet but I'd be fine with the series ending. At this point I'm just watching the new films because of habit more so than a meaningful interest in the stories they're going with. Although for nostalgia's sake I would like to see a "love letter" to the PT kind of like how TFA was that to the OT.
     
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  4. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Speaking of a "love letter" to the PT, It would have been great to bring back Jar Jar in the sequel trilogy for a cameo or a small role. Maybe Leia has to go to Naboo for some reason and Jar Jar helps her with her task because she's Padme's daughter. The sequel trilogy could have done a better job with including prequel characters and locations. Instead, it has pretty much pretended the prequels never existed, which is a shame.
     
  5. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Thanks.

    Okay.

    Okay. I guess I maintained interest in the characters overall, so I dodged that bullet.

    The internet seems to have a way of compelling people to “win” discussions rather than actually discussing the subject.
     
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  6. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Or, they could’ve brought Force Ghost Anakin to give the other point view of the Jedi debate, instead of having a glorified Yoda cameo to signpost what was already an obvious message that didn’t add anything new.

    It would be definitely interesting to see the pro-Jedi perspective coming from ex-darksider and reformed person who Luke deemed as a victim of the Jedi, as it would actually give the movie that “depth” of the Jedi philosophical question that the movie was trying to have but sorely lacked due to Luke’s one-sided rants going by virtually unchallenged. Luke was talking from the POV of Jedi who gave up because of the darkside, and Anakin could’ve answered that from the POV of Sith who gave up on the darkside because of the Jedi/lightside.

    Plus an appearance of Anakin would not only be an obvious way of including the PT in the ST story but it would have narrative links to the actual story being told in the ST via Kylo Ren/Snoke, as in the current darskiders are obsessed with Vader. His appearance as a reformed Vader would only drive home the fact that that the villains are wrong and deluded, instead of coming across “right” in their nihilistic mantra (which is not what RJ intended, but it’s what most people seem to have taken from the movie).
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  7. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    I have been thinking about this all day. I agree 100%. The thing that strikes me is that it's then really curious why they walked away from whatever story GL had for the ST? That's really interesting to me as it suggested they thought they could do better or create a better story than him. I'm sure many would disagree however I don't believe the evidence suggests that they do.

    So now instead of just being told GL had similarities that had Luke in exile etc I would really love to know if he had a larger vision? I suspect we never will never learn.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  8. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I disagree. Yoda is the perfect person to tell Luke the Jedi should continue despite their faults because it's him who led the Order to their demise, and who's own apprentice fell to the dark side. He's telling Luke that, despite their failings, you can't give up on them. Vader represents the failure of the Jedi. Yoda represents their perseverance.
     
  9. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Like you pointed out here though, they didn't "walk away" from the Lucas story. A lot of elements from his treatment made their way into The Force Awakens. We don't even know if he had an actual plan for the entire trilogy for them to walk away from.
     
  10. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    True. Intriguing though to consider none the less. The mileage varies depending on your enjoyment of the ST though, doesn't it? From a few posts back I like the mystical nature of SW and hold out for more of it.

    It's this comment a few posts earlier that sparked my curiosity.

    "I don't think the story group and current directors put the kind of thought into it like posters here may have. I believe they find SW interesting and it is certainly good for their careers to work with the franchise."
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  11. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Well yeah, but there's a pretty wide difference between a ST that exists and one that doesn't, and might never have.
     
  12. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Disagree, to me Vader represents the ultimate success of the Jedi. The ultimate reason to why, even if the Jedi fail, they should prevail, because look at what happened to Vader and ROTJ. He is the ultimate proof that the lightside triumphs over the darkside.

    In a movie where the character representative of the Jedi whined on and on that Jedi should die because their existence continues to lead to the creation of darksiders, Yoda doesn’t give a reason why the Jedi should continue, neither offers a counterpoint to Luke’s rants or Kylo’s ideology.

    Vader is the only character that could give the final answer to both sides of the question.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  13. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Really? The Story Group, in particular, are massive fans.
     
  14. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Honestly? I don't think super fans should be the ones to dictate where things go. They should have some familiarity, yes, but fans aren't typically the most reasonable people to work with when it comes to doing things with "their" franchise.

    I think it's kind of incongruous to include the Story Group in "people that control where the story goes". Their job is to work with various creators through different media to try and keep things as accurate as possible to each other.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  15. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    No question of that. I even said I doubt we would ever know and I doubt it was complete myself. Quite possibly just thoughts and ideas. However, the thoughts and ideas of the creator of the story are very likely quite different from those of hired writters from the reasons stated in @Plan741 excellent post. GL has been on record of saying they didn't follow through with his concept, didn't he?

    But don't mistake me, I wasn't dictating anything. Just saying its intriguing to think about.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  16. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Vader helped kill billions despite his redemption. He is no 'success story'. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke are all better representations of the light being triumphant over darkness, since everyone has darkness, and despite the pressures of their lives, they endured.

    Yoda's counterargument is that failures are what makes the greatest success. Perfection doesn't exist. The only way you move towards it is building on the failures.
     
  17. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    George Lucas has also been on record saying he had nine episodes planned out, only had six episodes planned out, would never do another three movies, and that he sold Star Wars to white slavers. He's not very consistent.
     
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  18. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    It's also a crazy debate as I have been far from GL's greatest supporters at times. But the spirit of this thread is what as fans we actually want? It's a nice moment to be self-indulgent in that regard.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  19. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Why would fans want a treatment that exists only in theory created by a man that sold his franchise and cut ties with it? Especially when the same fans riot against the current leader who was hand picked by that same person?

    Fans are weird and often incongruous. Star Wars means different things to pretty much everyone. That's what we got out of TLJ. One man's personal meaning for Star Wars. And that's why we have such a divide right now in the fandom.
     
  20. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Instead of this to and fro what is it that you would like from the ST? Would you change anything or are you satisfied as is?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  21. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    I have no idea. I've liked the Sequel Trilogy. I feel like asking for changes would butterfly effect to other things and quickly spiral out of control. It also wouldn't be true to the people who put a lot of time and effort into this stuff.
     
  22. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    "What Do We, As Star Wars Fans, Actually Want Star Wars To Be About and Should the Saga Continue?"

    I feel there is nothing wrong in saying. I like the direction. Yes, I want it to continue. I'm pleased you basically said that I and I have no intention to try and change your mind.


     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  23. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    Uh, I meant Vader is a success story for the Jedi in the OT, not that his life was an example to live by. His story is a cautionary tale that could and should be included in the ST as an answer to Kylo’s misguided ideology, and could be used also as a counterpoint to Luke's rants from the perspective of someone who actually experienced both sides of the Force.

    I think it would have added something to the movie if Anakin came by and said something along the lines of “No, the Jedi did not create me. It was my choice, my own failure. And I was saved by you, a Jedi, mentored by other Jedi.”

    That is the reason to be and success story of the Jedi, which the movie brushed over. Luke was convinced it was the fault of the Jedi the creation of the Sith, but there was no counterargument offered to that from an actual person on the other side of question would have a credible input in the matter. With the very one-sided way the Jedi debate was delivered, Yoda just comes across as another failure of a Jedi but with no proof of success, which is no wonder why a lot of people came out of the movie thinking the message was to kill the past and move away from the Jedi because they were wrong, despite that not being RJ’s intentions, and even despite the movie’s half-assed attempt at revitalizing the destroyed Jedi’s glory in the end.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  24. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    It isn't that simple though. Star Wars is, to me, a sandbox. I like that each new movie gives us something different. I like that we're at a period where tons of people are jumping into this franchise to make new things. I'm not just going to boil it down to "I like the direction. Yes, I want it to continue.", because that isn't what I really think.
     
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  25. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    That's not really a valid counter argument to Luke's point. Luke was merely pointing out that these very powerful people, with all their knowledge, sometimes fall. He's not wrong about that. "The Jedi didn't create me" completely misses Luke's argument. A fallen Jedi really shouldn't be able to convince Luke given his arguments.