ST What Do You Think Of The Dyad?

Alright, I gotta bow out. This is just blatantly disrespectful at this point.

 

Talking about "crazy pills" and "misrepresentation" is disrespectful... especially when I've done nothing of the sort. I've been nothing but civil. But as I stated several posts ago, I understood your position from the start... there's no requirement for you to elucidate further. You just need to accept that others patently don't agree with what you're putting forward.

 

I have no issue with you disagreeing with me. I noted long ago that our base level disagreement would have saved us a lot of time. I have an issue with a blatant disregard for the words I'm saying and your substitution of words that I'm not saying. I am 100% not ok with that.

Come on, man.

I tried asking if you were familiar with the AI problem and you ignored it. The AI problem has nothing to do with religion or god or Lucas, but is a near perfect analogue for what I've been saying here. It has to do with cost of unforeseen consequences and the application of creative power without control. About achieving a specified goal but at a cost that is too high to consider it a success. It's a comparison in which the Force is being compared to human beings, not gods.

 

And I’m 100% not ok with you being so disingenuous. You’re continuing to deflect from the points I raised (as per below), and are still applying your views on the external “real world” and applying it to the fictional.

You stated:

So clearly you believe the force failed in its objective, even though it effectively rid the universe of the Devil.

And I rejected your premise posts ago when reiterating the fact that, within universe, without any intervention, Sidious/Palpatine would have still become supreme chancellor, he still would have conceived and implemented Order 66, and he would have still established a totalitarian regime. Within universe, it’s the force/the Chosen One that puts an end to that. It wasn’t responsible for it, in the same way that ‘God’ wasn’t responsible for the atrocities that took place during WWII.

 

What do I think of the dyad? I like it.

 

The Force is not a God analog in my judgement of this situation. Nothing about God is relevant to what I'm saying.

A creation of The Force slaughtered younglings and spent two decades hunting down and killing force users. In my opinion, The Force bears some of that responsibility. Not because they "let it happen", but because they created it. Just as the humans bear some responsibility when the Super AI exterminates humanity. Not because they "let it happen", but because the created it. The notion that Palpatine would have done evil stuff anyway has absolutely no bearing on my assessment of The Force's burden for its creation. And as I've mentioned previously, Anakin's free will also doesn't let The Force off the hook, it merely provides context for how/why things went off the rails.

You are well within your rights to disagree with my assessment. You are not, however, free to introduce meaning to these statements that I have explicitly told you are not there. I am the single authority on what meaning my words carry.

 

And this is the point you are repeatedly trying to deflect. The quasi-religious/philosophical elements of Star Wars are analogous with “real world” philosophies and beliefs... where we (humans) have the free will to make right or wrong choices and do good and bad things... where ‘God’ created Satan. That you have an issue with this is a philosophical one, and is not an inherent flaw with the concepts that Lucas depicts. It’s akin to you criticising Close Encounters of the Third Kind because you don’t believe in aliens.

It’s fairly straight forward, within Star Wars, the force creates a being that has the ability to defeat the one who is causing imbalance. The force doesn’t create Anakin to kill younglings and Jedi... just as ‘God’ didn’t create Nero to persecute Christians. And this is why your criticism, in this particular instance, doesn’t have any bearing in logic, as I believe you’re struggling to distinguish between the in universe logic and your views on an external philosophical point (IMO).

 

Alright, good talk.

 

The dyad was one of the most interesting things of the trilogy. I think it could have been executed better, and I wish Ben would have played a more active role in Palpy's demise because the two of them together should have ended him, not just Rey. But overall, I enjoyed it.

 

The dyad was an interesting idea. The movie did not elaborate much on it, but the concept did work well as a story element that hints at the long history of the Jedi and the Sith. And the movie certainly has many of those. Here are some thoughts I have on this:

• Rey and Ben were destined to become a dyad, but like all destiny in Star Wars, this was never a set destiny. But it happens, their choices throughout the sequels result in their becoming that dyad by the the end of Rise.
• Once they become a dyad, they are one, spiritually. Even when they are apart, they are still joined. So it is the dyad that is able to harness the power of all the Jedi to destroy the Sith.
• Similarly, by virtue of becoming one, Rey is truly and almost literally a Skywalker at the end of the movie. Ben survives in her in some way. It's entirely possible that the dyad is still alive at the end of the trilogy, even while one of them has physically died.

There were dyads in the legendary past too. So the trilogy leaves open the full possibilities of what a dyad in the Force might do. We could see it in a book or comic set in the distant past, perhaps we could see how it would be used by the Sith. And if there are ever stories that follow the sequels, we can see its power continue to exist through Rey.

 

Given the twin suns metaphor, but also given Kylo and Rey having different arcs (=trajectories), the dyad could be equated with gravity. This would be the Exegol dyad:

Spoiler

And this would be their TLJ interaction:

Spoiler

They approach each other, and then they repel each other. They go from

to

And here, their trajectories are already diverging (a 90º angle). He's facing the throne, she's facing the rebels: '^' vs '>':


'Don't go this way', she says.

In TROS, they approach again. And it is Rey the one facing the risk of going the wrong way. Again, a 90º angle:

She's 'facing the throne' here. She's facing this:

Then she goes to Luke's island.

 

These days, I wish Rey wasn’t Palpatine’s granddaughter and that the dyad between her and Kylo had nothing to do with their lineages being connected. The fact that the dyad is somehow “family/legacy” related is what makes it annoying, for me.

 

I don't think family/legacy has anythint to do with the dyad.

 

Kylo: “Your father was the son of the emperor, and my mother was the daughter of Vader. What Palpatine doesn’t know is that we’re a dyad in the force. Two, that are one.”

^when I heard that, it gave me the impression that family/legacy had something to do with it.

 

Nah it's just worded wrong, they are dyad because of their connection.

 

Fair enough then!

 

Campbell borrowed the term 'dyad' from sociology. The smallest unit in a social network.
But there's also triads, and they cluster and form 'neighbourhoods'. Sounds like the opposite of Order 66, some kind of collective awakening. 'If Skywalker returns the new jedi will rise'

In the Mortis arc, we have a triad: father, son, daughter. The father, that is Anakin, and Ahsoka and the daughter. Anakin saved Ahsoka through the Daughter.

What happened between Anakin and Leia and Ben? Leia -the daughter- reappears, but Ben doesn't. Was he saved? And what means Ben-as-Ahsoka? Rey Kenobi was discarded...but in the Kylo comic, he says to Snoke 'Kenobi, everybody thinks I'm supposed to be him'

 

I personally would have liked the dyad only if they had said there was a Sidious-vs-Yoda dyad and then another one like that. But they did not say that.

The problem is that it changes between movies. Snoke makes it in TLJ. Then all of a sudden, Palpatine doesn't understand the dyad in the third film...which is weird, given that Snoke was retconned into his avatar. If Palpatine were in character, he would have taken time to understand the dyad. He's got a PhD in Force studies. I mean, he's a Rule of Two Sith, not some jumbo defecation head idiot. Lol. You see why I say he's dumb in TROS? I mean, Palpatine has been dumbed down in the films before compared to certain books. He's even been dumbed down in a few comics and books occasionally. But NEVER this much. It's weird that he would not know about this dyad until the end of the movie. He acts like he's on what Charles would call "really bad acid" in Days of Future Past. Ha ha. And that's not Palpatine. Palpatine is monstrous freak psychologically on par with Hitler, sure, but he understands the Force as well as Yoda.

So, I think the dyad thing could have worked. But Johnson used it as a lazy vehicle for bad conversations, and Driver used it as some type of weird prophecy to fix...what Anakin had done before. You see? It makes no sense! It's vague and inane. It's as though Johnson and Abrams set gasoline on fire and got high off the fumes! It makes me giggle impinging that.

 

If the ST had been positioned from the start, as a race to stop Palpatine being resurrected by spilling the blood of 'the dyad'... and let's say for the sake of argument, the 'dyad' is a Sith legend that Luke finds pertaining to the Skywalker bloodline... then it could have been used to actually build a story around and shape characters accordingly. As it stands, it's a poorly conceived plot contrivance that is thrown in at the eleventh hour for no good reason and with no benefit to the story... in my opinion...

 

I agree. I believe it goes beyond opinion, though. A person can make a badly written story fun if there are good performances and music, say. However, the problem is that the three films are out of sync with each other, as you said.

 

Agreed about the family link being a bit too much. But if Palpatine had some hand in the creation of Rey that engineered the Dyad then it works for me.

 

I voted neutral. I hate the way it's implemented in TROS as it just seems like a lazy copout to explain the connection that was clearly pushed hard in TLJ. I don't have a problem with the idea in general, but it would need the right circumstances, maybe between twins or something. A Jaina and Jacen Solo situation perhaps.

 

A dyad in the force is an interesting idea. It's basically like soul mates in the GFFA. Two beings here, but as one in the Force. However, I don't like the way it was implemented. I don't like that the grandchild of Palpatine, and the grandchild of the Chosen One (who may or may not have been created by Palpatine), ends up being this major force connected duo that is used to bring back ... Palpatine.

Especially since it's also basically the only way for Palpatine to come back, which basically turns the duo into a last minute "horicrux" for the baddie to return. Why would the Force set this up? Just feels sloppy.

And we've already basically had a dyad in the OT. Luke and Leia, literal twins, had the same basic force connection and telephoning ability.

If you're gonna go with this concept, it's got to be set up earlier. I think I would have rather have had the dyad be Luke and Leia's children, or even just Leia's kids. Or hell, Luke and Leia themselves. That way it all comes down from the Chosen One's descendents. And not Palpatine's. And in this way, as part of that initial Sith experiment to create the Chosen One, it's also a way for Palpatine to return ala a path to immortality.

Outside of that, I think it's largely an unnecessary concept and doesn't make a lot of sense in the story. Kylo and Rey aren't equals. They're not polar opposites, one good and one bad, or even two beings but one in the Force. Or soul mates. Or whatever a dyad really is. They're just super connected. And in the end, it's not Rey and Kylo who fight, it's Rey and Palpatine. Rey becomes all the Jedi and Palps becomes all the Sith. That's the real final dyad in the film. The Skywalkers are pushed to the background in this other Palpatine family drama.

So it could have worked. But it needed way more room and development.

 

I think the dyad could have been used to tell a more interesting story in TROS.

Like if say Rey discovered that their power as a dyad was key to potentially stopping Palpatine, but it means she’ll have to turn to Kylo for help, this time no longer having any faith in him.

Or what if their lives were linked, such that if one dies the other dies too. And so in the end, Rey is willing to sacrifice her life to destroy Kylo, but maybe Finn stops her from giving her life, and Kylo is kept alive as a prisoner.

 

I think that would have worked better if Ben found out, (which he did anyway) and has to prove to Rey that he's good again, and that together, they can stop Palpatine. Not like in the film, where he's duped in to finding Rey so he can have some spaceships.

The point, use it as a way for Ben to do the hard work of righting some wrongs. And make Rey really suspicious of this based on TLJ.