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ST What do you think of the fact that Han and Leia were no longer together in the Sequel Trilogy?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Feb 26, 2021.

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  1. DarthVist

    DarthVist Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2019
    A lot of people hated that they were separated in the Sequel Trilogy. But to be honest through, a lot of couples do separate in real life. The way that romance is often portrayed in movies, TV shows, books, comic books, video games and other forms of fiction is nothing like how it is in real life. Fiction always make it seem like when two characters become a couple that everything is going to be perfect and that they are going to be together for the rest of their lives (when that rarely happens in real life).

    Also, Han and Leia separating from each other doesn't actually seem too out of character for them and seems very believable within the nature of their characters.
     
  2. Admiral_Wyvern

    Admiral_Wyvern Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2014
    I think having them break up is as valid a choice as them staying together.
     
  3. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    I didn't think it would work, but it did. Once Leia decided to dedicate her time to the Resistance, their marriage was already on rocky grounds. And then when Ben fell to the dark side, that would have been the final nail in the coffin. Han may have left to try and find Ben, but as the months went by, he got sucked back into his old life.
     
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  4. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2005
    I never had an issue with it. Life happens..

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
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  5. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I thought it was an unnecessary contrivance, that had little context, and didn’t benefit the characters, or larger story in any meaningful way. In truth, I think it was purely a plot device to try and re-set Han’s character to that of the ‘roguish pirate’ of the OT, rather than trying to depict him (for example) dealing with his life outside of being an ‘outlaw’. Was that a challenge for him? Was he bored by being part of the ‘new’ establishment? I’d have much rather seen how Han and Leia’s relationship broke down and how that impacted on their son. That to me is where the drama of these 3 characters (Leia, Han and Ben) were I.e. how their relationships broke down.
     
  6. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2020
    Quite valid.
     
  7. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    Sucked. Unfortunately it didn’t pay off in any real way for the story it was merely Kasdan thumbing his nose at Lucas since he never wanted them together i the first place. Maybe if the ST had a competently constructed narrative i would think otherwise.
     
  8. mtt02263

    mtt02263 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2020
    I don't LIKE the decision, but I'm also not going to say that they were going to be perfectly set for a lifetime of happiness. I think they obviously loved each other, but both could be reactionary and mercurial at times. I don't really see what was gained by separating them, though.
     
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  9. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I think it makes sense that parents might split up after their only son kills all his classmates, leaves his uncle for dead, and then joins a space-fascist regime set on galactic genocide. But not because Leia and Han has some sort of inherent relationship problems that would one day lead to them splitting up.

    Basically I don't like the way it was implemented. I don't like that Leia is in charge of the Resistance, the very rebel militia that's in charge of attacking the FO. And I don't like that Han goes back to pirating. Both were essentially set back to ANH.

    I would have rather had them in new stations in life. Leia more in charge of the NR and not just the military - again. And I would have had all three reunite for one quick scene of healing.
     
  10. SmokeMonster4815162342

    SmokeMonster4815162342 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    TFA suggested that Ben’s fall is what made them both “go back to the only thing they were ever any good at it”, aka doing their best to heal, which may mean doing it on your own.

    So given the Kylo thing, it seemed okay to me. Whether or not the films should have gone down the Kylo Ren route is another matter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  11. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think it could've been done stronger.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I think there could be a story of them separating that could work, but the reasons behind this one, both out of universe—Kasdan never wanting them together in the first place—and in universe—Han going back to smuggling, the ridiculously antiquated notion that Leia can’t have a career and be a wife and mother—are terrible.
     
  13. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I'll be blunt and say that I really disliked it because I found it regressive and reductive of Han and Leia's characters, unnecessary, contributing to the bleak and nihilistic approach to the ST by adding to the need to tear apart all the accomplishments both personal and larger scale of the original trio from the OT, and enhancing the feeling that TFA was largely just a not-so-good carbon copy of ANH. Now, to enumerate why I feel that way:

    1. Why was Han and Leia's separation as depicted in TFA regressive? Well, it regressed Han and Leia right back to their ANH selves. Han and Leia are both single again. Han is back to being a smuggler operating on the edge of the law or outside of it, throwing all his character development from ANH through ROTJ (or even just within ANH, since by the end of ANH, Han comes to see himself as more than just a smuggler, and that's part of what makes him a well-developed character both in ANH and the OT overall; that he actually changes and grows as a character rather than remaining just a "cool smuggler"as he is when we first meet him in the Tatooine cantina). Leia is back to being a military leader of a group fighting an evil totalitarian regime.

    2. Why was Han and Leia's separation in TFA reductive? It reduced Han to being just a smuggler again and Leia to being just the leader of a resistance group again. These characters were only allowed to have one identity as either cool smuggler guy or military general instead of being allowed multiple identities. George Lucas to me was always comfortable with his characters having multiple identities, which gave his characters complexity and depth, but with JJ Abrams the OT trio in TFA seemed allowed to only have one identity and that identity would just be one ripped from ANH, a film in which each of the OT trio was actually allowed to have multiple identities that were developed. The script even has them say that they went back to the only things they were supposedly ever good at, which just demonstrates the insultingly reductive view that TFA had of these complex characters who should've been allowed to have multiple positive identities rather than one they were supposedly ever good at. That's a reductive and borderline insulting perspective on these classic characters who were beloved by generations of fans who saw them as being good at way more than just one thing, as most people on Earth are good at more than one thing.

    3. Why was Han and Leia's separation unnecessary? Han could easily have been working on a mission for the Resistance and that could've allowed him to make contact with Rey first, and many of the best pieces of dialogue between them like their final farewell are arguably even more effective if they are still together romantically up until the very end rather than having been split up for many years prior and only just reunited.

    4. Why did Han and Leia's separation contribute to the bleak and nihilistic approach of the ST? Well, TFA went out of its way to show that the OT trio failed in just about everything they tried to achieve in life. Leia trying to create a New Republic with the aid of characters like Mon Mothma? Oh, yeah, she totally failed at that, and the Empire Part Two (aka the First Order) is back. Luke trying to re-establish the Jedi Order? Oh, he failed at that too, of course. Han being more than a smuggler? Naturally he would fail at that. Han and Leia's marriage? That would of course not go the distance and Han would just sort of abandon Leia to fight the First Order (of which their son is the second in command) by herself. Han and Leia as parents? There only child has to go to the Dark Side, slaughter the other students at Luke's Jedi Academy, and serve an evil regime in a high-ranking capacity because happy endings don't exist and what not. The OT trio is basically just treated as an object lesson in failure. It's bleak. It's nihilistic. It's crushing to watch. Even just taking away one of those failures would make it less bleak and nihilistic. So, why not allow Han and Leia to be together, working to overthrow the First Order and comforting each other through the trauma of their son being lost to the Dark Side? Why did Han have to basically abandon Leia and make everything even more depressing? I don't get it and I don't like it. I probably never will get it or like it. And this is coming from someone whose parents are divorced and doesn't think all relationships are fairy tale happily ever afters.

    5. Why does Han and Leia's separation contribute to the feeling that TFA is a not-as-good carbon copy of ANH? Well, to remake ANH, Han needs to be a smuggler again, and Leia needs to be the leader of a resistance group. They also need to not be together. Lo and behold, they are indeed all that. Han and Leia are their ANH selves so that TFA can just replicate all the major story beats of ANH in a less resonant fashion.

    So, Han and Leia's separation pretty much embodies much of my disagreements with the creative philosophy behind the ST in general and TFA in particular.
     
  14. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I agree that the idea of Ben’s fall traumatizing the two of them into an estrangement that clearly isn’t acrimonious but more just made of a mountain of pain they’re going through makes sense. Ben Solo is a pretty depressing concept for the audience; it’d be far worse for his parents.

    I’ll say that I personally don't respect the idea that they had a failed marriage or had anything to do with Ben’s fall, even in the idea of being “inadequate” for whatever stuff Palpatine/Snoke was doing; every writer who tackled them post-ROTJ still shows them as mature, emotionally wise characters making it work as much as they can, and Ben a solo being such a weak-willed brat remains more an incongruity on his part than on theirs.
     
  15. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Just another awful decision. Yes couples break up; but the ST just went in every single negative direction it could. Not exactly what I go see SW movies for.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  16. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    Yeah, contracting an incurable disease or being in a fatal vehicular crash are both incredibly realistic fates that could theoretically be a major plot point in an interesting story, but that seems like a massive waste if it had happened to one of the main characters off-screen in between Star Wars Episodes VI and VII.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Like Alien 3 :p
    (I hate Alien 3)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  18. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    I was going to write a long piece about why the Han/Leia breakup was so wrong but I didn't need to - you summed it up beautifully! Co-signed!
     
  19. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Before the movie events that we ended up with, I would just as likely think that they'd grow closer together because of this. Crap went down in the OT, and they grew closer. They both could have used each other, to deal with the loss of Ben, as well as Luke going MIA. And maybe even use the event to try and make things better.

    Like...the movie seems to set up that Leia started the Resistance afterwards. But it seems smaller than the Rebellion, the NR doesn't officially acknowledge it (despite her own dark sider son being second in command) for political treaty reasons that don't make sense, and they've been fighting the FO for years.

    Why not just go for it and write Leia has being on the NR council, in charge of the military fleets, or something, and they believe her when she says the FO is problem. But then when her son defects to the FO, she's kicked off because her being in charge is a major conflict of interest now. So she builds an underground militia, or something with Han. The NR is trying to destroy the FO outright. And Leia/Han are trying to protect worlds set ablaze by their son's evil acts, and maybe get him back before the NR takes down the FO.

    I mean, didn't this happen when everyone found out that Vader was her dad? But now it's happening again, and no one cares. It's just sloppy.
     
  20. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Thanks! Glad I could express your thoughts and feelings on the matter!
     
  21. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    The fact they had split up was better for the plot they went with - worked quite well....
     
  22. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    How is it better for the plot? What does it matter if Han is working for the Resistance and stops by Maz's for some reason or he's a failed smuggler? What does it matter for the plot that Han and Leia are split up?

    For that matter, what does it matter to the plot that Kylo is their son? Outside of a hamfisted rerun of the OT, why is making the only child of the OT 3 (well, 4 if they are saying Jannah isn't Lando's child when there were rumors she would be) into a dark lord a great idea in the first place?
     
  23. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Was reading an interview with Arndt who said “I had originally written R2 and C-3PO showing up together, and Larry very intelligently said, ‘You want to keep them separate from each other. And of course I’m like, ‘No, no, no, Larry. You don’t get it at all!’” Arndt joked, drawing laughs from the audience...

    I have a feeling the same happened here too lol.
     
  24. mtt02263

    mtt02263 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2020
    "It rhymes" "muh themes"
     
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  25. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Yes, I never understood why he was supposed to keep Artoo and Threepio separate from each other - I mean, shouldn't someone have realized that Kasdan's best scripts were when he was working from someone else's story? It must drive him crazy that no one remembers Big Chill or Silverado (which was boring in 1985, it must be like watching paint dry now) or Body Heat or Bodyguard (except for the soundtrack) but they do remember the SW movies and Raiders. He certainly never wrote a decent ending (I cannot even remember the plots of Big Chill or Silverado or the ending of Body Heat). It really seems like he came back to Star Wars to prove something and only proved he can't write a SW movie without George Lucas. Which we already knew.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021