ST What do you think of the fact that Han and Leia were no longer together in the Sequel Trilogy?

It's a good job the first thing Rey saw, when thinking of what surname to take, wasn't a Womp rat crapping. Fan projection doesn't prevent the sequels from being poorly constructed films. I think the only reason the writers decided on Rey taking the name Skywalker was because they'd realised, by the end of TROS, they'd inadvertently killed all the Skywalker family. What a great legacy to take forward... 'Shhh... if we don't mention it, and if Rey calls herself 'Skywalker', the audience will be too busy scratching their heads from the previous 2 hours to realise what we did'...

 

Walked right into the incredible own goal of doing an Episode X with another Skywalker and having everyone watching mutter "Palpatine" under their breath whenever someone says it.

 

"Tragic moment on the bridge" - really? So murdering Han and thanking him for letting it happen is just a "tragic moment" that, what, Kylo had NOTHING to do with? It doesn't give Han's death any meaning. Kylo murdered him and then murdered Maker knows how many people on how many worlds over the next year and then finally, when he was about to be eclipsed by Palpatine and he was killed by Rey, THEN he wakes up? Come on now.

The new book even says it's Leia dying for him and Rey healing him.

No, because it is NEVER established how long Luke is on the island, while we have an 18 hour timeline set by the other events in TLJ.

 

I am not sure what you talking about. I never said that.

I don't know what you are saying here either. You are unhappy with why/how Ben Solo returned in TROS? You are upset that Harrison Ford returned in the scene? Something else?

Yep. That's what the movie presents as well. I read the book (Skywalker: A Family at War) it also doubles down on the fact that Ben's scene with Han Solo in TROS represents his own the fact that he finally has his own personal reckoning with the fact that he killed his own father.

We have an 18 hour timeline set by other events in TLJ? This is officially established somewhere? A quick google search suggests that she was there more like 2 days, 2 nights.

Side note: A quick google search of how long Luke is at Dagobah yields wildly different results and, in various corners, devolves into debates about the nature of how measuring time works when traveling at light speed.

Lastly, is there a standard system for measuring days in the GFFA? Meaning, days have to be different lengths on different planets, right? The assumption being that each planet has different sun cycles?

 

Yes.

Yes, the fleet is supposed to run out of fuel in 18 hours, which I believe is said when Finn and Rose set off for Canto Bight. I can see why it's forgettable

But they never say how long it takes Han and Leia to get to Bespin/Luke is on Dagobah. Johnson mentions a time frame (and so does Abrams in TROS, for reasons unknown. Well, since JJ has no conception of time and space, at least in a space movie. He makes Lucas look like Neil de Grasse Tyson.

No way is this non math/physics major getting into THAT discussion!

 

It's not irrelevant because you're saying its an example of the same thing when it's not. The issue I have is with Luke being the person she decides to honor. Last names that don't have to do with honoring anyone, be it Smith or Washington, aren't comparable at all.

That's exactly what I am saying, and it's not satisfying to me because according to these same movies the state in the aftermath of ROTJ wasn't very good, so why should I celebrate returning to it?

So he kills his father and then over a year and lot more killing later it just suddenly hits him that maybe he should stop?

I mean, yeah if you must know. It was a lot easier to ignore when it was just a silly comic book or whatever. It doesn't stop being lazy writing because they did it a second time but even worse.

The New Republic was on screen for all of 5 seconds in the entire ST, during which time it exploded. On top of that, there's an implication that is fed by the side materials that it was fairly incompetent and in some cases blatantly corrupt. The movies themselves are unclear whether anyone even cares about bringing it back.

Yeah, "technically". This isn't a court of law and I'm not concerned with whether she meets some legal definition of "training". Training under someone doesn't make you friends and it certainly doesn't make you family. They simply did not have that kind of relationship.

You can not wear a seatbelt and still be fine as long as you don't crash. That doesn't mean wearing a seatbelt isn't the smarter choice. I've winged a 5 minute Spanish speech because I was just hoping my name wouldn't be called that day and I still got a B, but if I bombed it would it be because my teacher was a harsh grader or because I was irresponsible and didn't do my work on time? I can tell you which side my parents would have taken.

He didn't invite her in the first place and she wasn't welcome at the end of her stay either.

It's not 2-3 weeks(The 18 hours that was referenced was how long the fleet has from evacuating to running out of fuel. Rey left the base a day or two before) and I'm not so sure it's his guest house either, as opposed to the Fish Nuns. It's not like he owns Ach-To.

I don't know why you're talking about this at all then because Rey doesn't say she's "part of the Skywalker family", she says she's Rey Skywalker. My cousins are part of the (My Last Name) family by virtue of being my aunt's children, but they would never use that last name to refer to themselves because my aunt married my uncle and they all have that last name. I sure as heck have never referred to myself by my mother's maiden name, even though I'm part of that family.

 

No, I know the fleet is on a 18 hour timer. Yet, Rey leaves the Resistance quite a bit before they evacuate D'qar.

Also, Rey is certainly on Ahch-To for more than 18 hours. She has more than a few nights and days pass. This is why I am asking you how standard time works in the GFFA.

Yeah, I don't know either. Just asking.

I dunno. The time space thing always seems fuzzy to me in all Star Wars films.

You said people don't choose surnames for themselves based on/to honor people they are not blood relatives to. Clearly, this is not true. Not everyone with the surname Washington are blood relatives to George Washington. People, monuments, places have all been named Washington to honor this guy.

Hell, quite often, spouses change their last name specifically to honor their partner, and the family lineage, etc.

Bottom Line: Rey clearly takes on the name Skywalker to honor her mentors, the family, Luke and Leia, etc. I'm not sure why you don't get this. Why do you think she takes the name? To nefariously pretend to be a relative for fame/legitimacy?

Um, because clearly a galaxy without a tyrannical Sith Lord Palpatine ruling/threatening to rule is better than a galaxy with him in it. Post both ROTJ and TROS the galaxy is no longer at war. That's not worth celebrating?

Here's what I hear you saying:

After ROTJ we were led to believe that everything was great/hunky dory in the galaxy. Turns out, we was wrong.

Events and stories from the old EU, the ST, and The Mandalorian all showed us that the victory after ROTJ didn't "wrap things up" in the "happily ever after" manner that many assumed. Therefore, why should we believe post TROS would be any different?

Too funny. This is like saying, "So after decades of ruling the galaxy via murdering, marauding, and terrorism...Darth Vader decides to turn into a softie/good guy?

Both are ignoring crucial plot elements/story developments/life events/revelations:

For Vader, he discovers his son is alive.
For Ren, he discovers his mother dies.

Again, you really don't get this plot point? Or you are willfully misinterpreting it because you don't like the movie?

I just cannot relate. Movies and comic books are both valid art forms. Certainly, when it comes to SW, movies are "solid "canon and comics tend to be a bit "soft" canon.

It's fine if you don't like the concept, yet to act like the ST alone sullied/tarnished the OT in this regard, or in a way the EU never did is, your own cross to bear. It's also not true.

Interesting. Why do you even care about the New Republic? The NEw Republic is an EU concept. This is an EU concept you liked, whereas the resurrected Palpatine is an EU concept you didn't like? You should have told JJ Abrams.

Okay, if it's technically right that Luke mentored Rey, why dispute it? Because you didn't like it, it's not a valid claim? Clearly, Rey views Han, Luke, and Leia in a more positive light than you are suggesting.

Again, unlike your examples: whether the Prequel and/or Sequel trilogies "crashed the car" or "bombed the quiz" is completely subjective. Ergo, I think it's a weak analogy.

None the less, Rey was welcome by Luke Skywalker to stay with him and engage in training/lessons/guidance for some period of time. This is a point of fact in the film.

So "taking someone in" is dependent on the amount of time someone is staying with you? My father recently stayed at my house for a weekend. When he left he said, "Hey, thanks for taking me in for a few days." I said Luke "took Rey in" and you have an issue with it. Maybe it's a difference in colloquialism? Again, we can stop disputing this phrase as it's becoming less and less relevant.

Your example with your cousins isn't analogous to what's going on with Rey. Rey's choice is more akin to this:

World famous boxer/icon Muhammad Ali was born Cassius Clay. Originally, Ali was named named Cassius Marcellus Clay in tribute to the white abolitionist. Yet, Clay didn't like his inherited/family name. He referred to it as his "slave name."

Ultimately Ali, didn't feel that his name didn't fit who he was. Thus, Cassius Clay chose to renamed himself Muhammad Ali. He specifically named himself this to honor the prophet Muhammad... the founder of Islam. Someone the former Cassius Clay was not related to, nor adopted by, nor had any actual relationship with.


You can continue tell me that people don't choose to name/rename themselves to honor people that aren't blood relatives, yet clearly there are many examples in our world of this exact thing happening.

Thanks for the funny clip.

 

That's all well and good. But this is a story. Just because it happens on earth, doesn't automatically means it's a well told story for Rey to do the same. In the SW universe, the Jedi are typically true to themselves. Its when they veer off to the dark side that they take up new names because they want to abandoned their old selves, in favor of something more scary. Even when Obi-wan goes into hiding, and sorta has a knick name that everyone calls him by, most likely because he's in hiding, he hasn't abandoned the Obi-wan name. He's just in hiding and knows going by Obi-wan is going to call attention to himself.

Rey Palpatine taking the name Skywalker feels more like she's embarrassed about that last name, and wants to hide her real identity.

So it's not that Rey couldn't change her name, per see, it's just gonna have to work better within the story. Muhammad Ali may have been inspired by the religious leader, and never have known him personally, and had a damn good reason for wanting to change his name. End of day, I don't feel Rey really knows Luke Skywalker. Or is inspired by him to the point where she overlooks Han - her new father figure, or Leia - her new mother figure, or Ben, the guy she ... I guess fell in love with and could have taken the name Solo. The only reason why is, is because we the audience want/expect her to be. It's more meta than anything driven by her character.

And lastly at this point I wouldn't doubt that LFL will have Rey name her son Luke Skywalker. And then this Luke Skywalker will grow up to remake the Jedi in 20 years.

 

Well crap. I've never thought of this. I think you have just cracked the code.

 

She's gonna name her son Grumpy Skywalker.

 

Seven dwarves in a bed all felt happy. Happy got out and they all felt grumpy.

 

The fact that "this happens on Earth" is the one of the points of contention in the conversation you are jumping into. Ledreader had previously claimed that "this is not how names work on earth." You are late to the party, yet you are backing my side of this. Thanks for the support?

You claimed that Jedi are "true to themselves" and then immediately proceeded give an example of a Jedi changing his name with to Ben in order to disguise his true identity.

You are the one adding qualifiers as to how/when/why Star Wars characters/Jedi can change their names....the movies do not lay out such rules or regulations on the matter.

I've already made claims as to why it makes sense that Rey might choose the surname Skywalker in and out of universe. Feel free to read the last few pages for the back and forth and reasoning on that.

Lastly, didn't you hear? Rey is actually Shmi Skywalker and is going to time travel backwards (via the "World between Worlds" method seen in Rebels) and will eventually give birth to Anakin.

 

I'm not RedLeader. I have my own argument. Just because my argument isn't his, doesn't mean you win. lol.

I don't remember Obi-wan changing his name. Other people call him that nickname. He goes with it, to hide. He's still Obi-wan. Leia calls him Obi-wan. Luke calls him Obi-wan. Owen calls him Obi-wan. Is Rey doing that? Coming up with a nickname to disguise her true identity so that she can survive while in exile? Great, then she is still Rey Palaptine. Just like Ben Kenobi is still Obi-wan Kenobi (notice how he keeps his last name though).

And funny, I thought Rey Skywalker was about her choosing her real identity. You can't have it both ways.

 

It would surely have to be Jesus Skywalker, born of the virgin MaRey

 

I didn't say Rey is there 18 hours, I said she is there for however long there is in between her arrival and the ships leaving D'qar+some amount of time that cannot exceed 18 hours. The ships leave D'qar when the FO arrives, and the FO knows about the base on D'qar prior to Rey leaving for Ach-to. So it's however long it takes the FO to rally a force together and jump to D'qar, which both logically and with context clues from Rey's time on Ach-to comes out to a few days.

Let me get straight to this because the rest of the stuff is just beating around the bush on things that don't matter. I think Rey takes the name because she's a fictional character whose whims are solely determined by what the writers hired by LFL choose, and LFL felt that the name "Skywalker" was still incredibly valuable for marketing purposes but realized that they had killed all of those characters off so they needed a new one. So they just pretended Rey and Luke had a positive relationship where she would want to honor him and be part of his family when that doesn't actually match up with the story they told. I'm not saying Rey doesn't take the name to honor Luke, I'm saying she shouldn't have because it doesn't make sense.

Why should I believe Palpatine is more dead now than he was then? Why should I believe the galaxy is any more stable? How long before fascists inevitably conquer the galaxy again? Or am I just supposed to believe that Rey's better at this stuff than our old heroes were and she'll succeed where they failed?

That's the problem. You hear what your preconceived notions of "ST hater talking points" are instead of what I'm actually saying. Where in all my posts can you point to where I said anything about "wrapping things up" or "happily ever after", or "everything should be hunky dory"?

You have cause and effect backwards. I don't like this plot point because I don't think it makes sense. Maybe I should ask if you really don't get the complaints or are you willfully misinterpreting them because you like the movie. You say Ren turns back because he discovered his mother dies but we were talking about the impacts of Han's death. Are you suggesting that Leia's death wouldn't have had the same effect on Kylo if Han was still alive? Why? That's never addressed anywhere in the films.

Every time you bring up the EU as justification my response has been that I don't like it there either and yet somehow you came to this conclusion. Are you reading these or am I wasting my time?

The New Republic isn't an EU concept(outside of literally being named the New Republic), it's the logical continuation from where the OT left off, hence why Disney canon still has a New Republic. Given that the last Galactic Republic brought with it 1000 years of peace, why wouldn't our heroes want to bring that back?

Because "mentored" has a certain positive connotation and you're suggesting that since they met the strict definition that the connotation is likewise applicable between them, even though that doesn't match what we were actually shown. I'm suggesting that Rey viewing Luke in such a positive light the way she does in the final scene of TROS is contradictory to the actual story they told leading up to that.

It's analogous to your insistence in pointing out that Han and Leia are part of the Skywalker family, which I agree has nothing to do with what's actually going on with Rey.

That has never been what I am saying. I am saying that names are a significant thing with a lot of personal meaning. Changing your last name to someone else's isn't something you just do on a whim because they're famous. Essentially you're declaring that you view them as your true family. At no point in their interactions together did Luke earn such an honor from Rey.

The opportunity was too good to pass up.

 

That's a good pull quote for TROS.

 

I don't know what to tell you. You came in halfway through the conversation and acknowledged the point I was making.

Huh? This hasn't been shown on screen one way or another. Has it?

Luke calls him Ben just as much (or more) as he calls him Obi-Wan. Leia also refers to him as, "Ben Kenobi?!?!" Hell, she named her kid Ben, not Obi-Wan. What does that mean? I don't know. I'm sure you have some reason that you hate it too.

You mean, is Rey still being called Rey? Um, yes.

1. Rey was never Rey Palpatine. She never was called that, even when her parents were alive.

2. Muhammad Ali was still Cassius Clay, but it was rude and ignorant to call him that.

Unlike Ali, Rey NEVER has a previous last name. Palpatine was never her surname. She'd have to choose to be called that. You can see why she doesn't. She views the Skywalker's as her family.

Can't have what both ways? I always said Rey is choosing who she is/her identity when she takes on the surname Skywalker.

You think she should choose/embrace her "real identity" as a Palpatine? As a villain? I am unclear on what you are getting at.

You are the one projecting the idea that she's ashamed/embarrassed/hiding her lineage, whatever. I said no such thing.

You are the one weaving a tangled web about who/what/why gets to change their names in Star Wars. I don't think their are set rules on why/how people in SW (or our world) get to choose names.

You are the one going on about why Obi-Wan is valid to change his name, but Rey is not. I think both reasons have merit. Obi-Wan needs a disguise. Rey has found her family and could use last name.

I don't necessarily subscribe to any of what you are saying in this regard. Moreover, I don't follow you on some of your points. Again, we don't see when/why/how Obi-Wan chooses to be Ben, do we?

More importantly, Star Wars doesn't really seem to put forward rules on who can change their name and when. I mean, Han Solo plucked his surname out of thin air, so there is some sort of precedent in universe of people/orphans choosing to be called whatever they want.

1. I don't get the complaints because Star Wars movies aren't hard to follow. It just seems that you don't like the what/why of what is being shown on screen..or that the events/logic don't hold up to your specific tastes/wishes.

2. I am confused about your question about if Leia's death would have impacted Ren had Han been alive. I don't follow what you are getting at.

3. Han's death was made more meaningful by TROS. Ben's memory of his father's word/actions on the bridge, the message/offer of salvation/home, is what fuel Ben to abandon the dark side/Kylo Ren and turn good. Han's confrontation/death was not for nothing, as his compassion for his kid ultimately brought about some redemption, and saved Rey/the galaxy.

It's not some deep dive, or mental gymnastics. It's all there on the surface of the movie/scene. It's Star Wars.

Hey, if it's officially 18 hours, or a few days...I don't see why it matters. In that time, she is staying with Luke. She may arrive and leave as an unwelcome guest, but a guest she is. Again, I'm not sure why this matters.

Tangent: Bilbo Baggins didn't want a company of dwarves as his guests, but he took them in and hosted them, nonetheless.

I am not arguing this. I agree. Yet, I want to push back on one point:

You say

Those characters? You mean, Luke and Leia? Collectively known as the Skywalkers? This goes back to my point, Rey named herself after both of them.

You can argue that Luke and Rey HATED each other if you want, the point remains...the family name is the name Rey chose for herself. Of course it is because it makes all of the out of universe sense that you just described. Yet, that doesn't mean Rey Skywalker is without merit in universe.

Again, by the time Rey comes of age, the Skywalker name is incredibly famous...it's mythologically famous as a name. Rey needed/wanted a last name. Even if Rey was not connected to the family at all.... she could have done like Muhammad Ali and chosen the name based on a heroic/influential/legendary figure.

Oh crap, you mean after ending the wars in Star Wars, there were actually more wars to be with each new Star Wars movie? Yeah, that's how sequels work.

You don't have to believe any of it. I certainly don't. These movies are space opera serials. I bet get Episode 10 eventually. Yet, that doesn't mean that the important events, blood, sweat, tears, and sacrifices that we witnessed in previous Episodes were for nothing.

To me, it sounds like this:

The Episode 4 sacrifices and victories for nothing because The Empire came back bigger and badder than ever in Episode 5.
Obi-Wan died for nothing because the Princess and company were captured by Darth Vader again. Luke's destruction of the Death Star was all for not, because...guess what...The Empire has another bigger, badder, more powerful Death Star. Too bad Luke. That great victory you had in A New Hope was a sham.

I am sorry if I am misunderstanding/misrepresenting you. Didn't this start out by you saying the galaxy was certainly in a worse place after TROS than it was after ROTJ?

I guess I took this to mean that you thought everything was great aka hunky dory/happily ever after ROTJ, but not so after TROS. My response, I believe, is that we don't know this.

I am reading. Again, between the expansive EU and the ST it just seems that there's not yet been sequels to the the OT that you like. I keep bringing up the EU to underscore the fact that your issues with the material is not inherently a Sequel Trilogy problem.

I agree that it's a logical continuation of the OT, but it's not the only logical continuation. Nor does this change the fact that concept/narrative is from the EU, not the OT. It wasn't even hinted at, or spoken of in the OT. At all.

Simply put we don't really see anything in the OT that points the creation a New Republic. There are no indicators whatsoever in the OT that rebuilding would Republic is a thing. Hell, we didn't even know what the Old Republic was until years after ROTJ.

Again, it was Heir to the Empire that first established the idea that Leia, Han, and Luke would be involved in the formation of a New Republic.

1. Besides the fact that the Old Republic didn't even reach as far as Tatooine, the fact that there was an entire impoverished, criminalized, underclass forced to live in the bowels of the capitol world of said Republic....

2. ...The Old Republic also toppled under its own bureaucratic weight and ended with a tyrannical Sith Lord turning it into a merciless Empire.

So, maybe the logical continuation would be to try something different? Either way, the OT didn't say.

Despite Rey's conflicted, frustrated, times with Luke on Ahch-To, she revered him. He came to understand her place/purpose just as she prompted him to rediscover his place and purpose. Clearly he comes to have affection for her. This is shown in the films.

Side note: I am a teacher. Some of my most difficult, maddening, frustrating students force me to change, to evolve, to grow. The very kids that I have to discipline, call home, send to the Principal, are some of my all time favorites. Often a mutual admiration/respect/bond is formed because of this work/struggle/growth. I've had students freak out and throw things only to come back years later and tell my how much they respect/admire/appreciate their time in my class.

Point being: Yeah, ideally, mentoring/teaching is a positive experience both ways. Yet, the teacher/student relationship is not always sunshine and rainbows ....especially when hard work is being done between two strong personalities.

Again, out of universe the name is for marketing, brand recognition and all you say. In universe, collectively, the family is know as The Skywalker family as well.

Clearly the name has personal meaning to Rey. She's an orphan and has chosen the family surname of the collective group of people that, in one form or another, took her in, guided her, mentored her, cared for her. Han, Luke and Leia (especially Leia) each did this. She has great reverence for Han, Luke, and Leia.

1. If you think I am saying Rey chose the Skywalker name simply because it's famous, you are not understanding what I am saying. The name has great importance to Rey. She grew up hearing the myths of Luke Skywalker. She has/and receives love and reverence for/from The Skywalker family. This is all shown in the films.

2. Of course people choose names for themselves (or their children) based on famous people.

I named my first born son Lucas after a really famous film maker. It's not a family name. I am not related to George.

Do you know how many Jordan's I've taught that were named after Michael Jordan? Literally hundreds. I kid you not.

Again. It's NOT ABOUT JUST LUKE. In and out of universe, they are the Skywalker Family. As illustrated in the films, Rey clearly views them as her true family. Rey was an orphan without a family, without a surname. Thus, she chooses the surname Skywalker for herself.

Not to be rude, but I cannot understand why you don't grasp this. It's in the movie. You can read the novel and it's explained in great detail.

Sorry for YELLING.

@LedReader

Also, we are way off topic. I am happy to continue. Respond in the Rey thread?

 

kudos to your great work on this site. you and Lobot's Wig keep me sane wish I had the time to have your energy

 

I wasn’t pleased with Han and Leia being apart, but I’ll stop my thoughts there.

 

No need for that, what would you have prefered?

 

If anything, Ben’s turning should have brought them back together. That’s it.

@ewoksimon Don’t worry, I won’t go into it beyond the above.

 

That would have made more sense...