ST What do you think of the fact that Han and Leia were no longer together in the Sequel Trilogy?

Believe me when I say that I am a Han fan. I was always Han Solo when we played Star Wars as kids, and I have more Han Solo merch and figures here among my vintage and Black Series collection than any other, but I didn't mind that he died.

Big Han and Little Han

 

Yes, absolutely. I'm perfectly willing to admit to that. Why would I want characters I enjoyed who previously had a happy ending to have that ripped away from them? The Bad Guys are the ones who are supposed to get their comeuppance, not the Good Guys. It's cathartic. I hated what they did to Admiral Ackbar and allegedly Nien Nunb, for the same reason. Nothing was gained narratively by bringing them back just to kill them off unceremoniously. It's not that surprising that writers would waste minor characters without much of a second thought though. It is hard to fathom why the main characters of a $4 Billion franchise were treated more like a threat than an asset. There are people who didn't mind what happened to them but who's benefit was it really for? If they had been in regular mentor roles would anybody have complained? Just from a pure business sense I don't understand it the decision to undercut them so thoroughly. For example, I thought Han's interactions with Rey and Finn worked really well, and nothing about those scenes required his marriage to be falling apart.

TLDR:

 

I don't even think I'd want everything happy/fortunate/fairytale/hunky-dory. I just don't like that it was all sad/misfortunate/deconstructed-fairytale. There is a middle ground.

 

If I wanted to watch movies or shows where happy endings were scoffed at and divorces are expected, common place occurrences I'd choose any number of current tv series' or cynical movies. Star Wars has been an escapist good vs evil story and not real world nihilistic commentary.

I wasn't expecting a full blown catch up of Han and Leia's trials and tribulations since ROTJ and I can reasonably understand not everything would have gone hunky dorey for them since ROTJ but it was just unnecessary to undo everything about the previous films. Not one single upbeat moment was spared.

 

This is not what I am talking about. What I am saying is this: It doesn't matter if (in the world of make believe in between ROTJ and TFA) Han and Leia aren't together. Not really. I don't need them to exist forever as a married couple or "together" offscreen in my head cannon. There was no guarantee at the end of ROTJ that they'd even get married and have kids. That's EU stuff. Question: were Han and Leia even living together in ROTJ? Seems like they were still in the newish phase of a relationship considering Han just found out Luke wasn't a factor/romatic competitor at the end of the film.

In any event: It is very apparent in TFA that they are still in love, and the spark that they shared in the OT is still up there on the screen for me to witness/enjoy. That's all I care about. That's the story.

I cannot speak for what you would/wouldn't expect.

Personally, I wouldn't expect Han, Luke, and Leia to return to ROTJ "happily ever after" status quo for a few reasons:

1. There is no drama in continuing the story (having sequels) if our legacy characters are "untouchable." Having threats/foes/challenges that have no real stakes makes for a dull story.

2. Another guaranteed happy ending for Han/Luke/Leia doesn't really fit the Star Wars pattern. Consider Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi dies in the sequels to his trilogy. Yoda does too. Han, Luke, and Leia, are retroactively fulfilling a similar mentor/torch passing role as Yoda and Obi-Wan. The mentors die in these kinds of stories so the new protagonists can live/survive/attain (mostly) on their own.

3. Another guaranteed happy ending for Han/Luke/Leia doesn't fit classical hero/myth patterns: Han, Luke, Leia ARE not primarily comic book characters. They age. They evolve. They raise/assist the next generation. They die. The OT3 are not in the mold of Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman. They are much closer to the classical myths and heroes of old. King Arthur dies. Robin Hood dies. Hercules dies. Achilles dies.

4. Considering the pattern of Star Wars storytelling and classical hero stories, I don't think the fates of Han, Luke, Leia were all that sad or unexpected. Luke and Leia as Force spirits gazing at Rey was a genuinely touching moment. I was bummed about Han dying, yet his scene with Ben/Ren in TROS offered a lot of redemption and, more importantly, purpose to his death scene. If not for Han's (and Leia's) sacrifice, Ben Solo would not have returned. It was bittersweet and well done.

Nothing was "shredded." ROTJ still occurs. You wanted that one, pristine, shining moment by the Ewok fire to essentially last forever? What saga/movie series does that?

Consider the Rocky franchise: Rocky Balboa doesn't have Adrian forever. The love of his life dies (offscreen no less). Rocky he doesn't stay the champion, Rocky doesn't remain rich, Rocky's friends and family all die, Drago returns, Rocky is even estranged from his son. Does that "shred" Rocky's accomplishments or his happy ever afters from the previous films/conflicts? Do movies Rocky I-VI suddenly get tarnished or "shredded" by the events in Creed I and II?

I am trying to explain to you why I am happy with it, and since you brought it up, it does feel like you are gatekeeping many facets of the Sequel Trilogy and the enjoyment of them by fans.

 

As @godisawesome alluded to even ROTJ itself combined a joyous celebration with Luke holding his father's funeral for its ending and it worked fine.

 

This is an interesting point. I often wonder whether the reaction to Obi-Wan Kenobi's and Yoda's deaths (and even exiles) would have been one of displeasure had the movies released in chronological order, following audience investment in their prequel adventures.

 

I looked in on that universe. The reaction was displeasure similar to what we have with the ST.

 

That's the key. It doesn't matter to you. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own wants/needs/priorities/tastes. I'm certainly not trying to change your mind. But, as I think you've already found, for a lot of people it does matter, and I think that's a perfectly normal reaction that the studios could have seen coming.

 

I think a lot of the issues with Yoda going into exile are only issues from the PT and not the OT. In the OT, when we meet Yoda, he is almost 9 centuries old and ends up being one year away from death. No one pictured Yoda (back in 1980) as some Jedi that could hop around like a frog and lightsaber duel. So, had the PT existed before the OT, I think tons of people would have had an issue with a completely competent and healthy Jedi Master just hiding on a swamp planet for two decades while the Empire grows in strength.

As far as Obi-Wan, I think people would ask why he waited so long to train Luke if the PT existed before.

AND AS FAR AS THE TOPIC AT HAND IS CONCERNED. I totally buy Leia and Han reverting back to what is comfortable to them as a coping mechanism for what happened to Kylo. My issue is, if that was the decision they were going to make story wise, then they should have touched more on it. Without reading supplementary material, we don't even know what the timeline is for FO appearing, Ben going to Luke, Ben falling to the dark, Han and Leia splitting, etc. I can't really respect any choice that was made concerning the OT3 because I have no way of putting it in context for the larger story without reading a bunch of books. And no, you're not gonna charge me the full price of admission and then state, "If you want the full story, give more money to Disney."

 

Because you care about "Ben Solo." I wanted Kylo Ren to die in a hole and stay there. So I don't find Luke, Han and Leia's sacrifice bittersweet, well done, or warranted. I think it's cynical and a slap in the face. To have those three heroes, characters who started it all, sacrificed on the altar of the Emo Prince, conjured up to to be the Loki/Snape, Draco/Edward the Vampire of Star Wars so his fans could spend years telling us that those characters were bad parents, wrong about poor privileged Kylo, who is better than them all and deserved a happy ending, is not at all what I expected when I sat down to watch TFA. I should have known better from JJ and Kasdan, or Kennedy and Abrams singing the praises of Driver. I just never thought that they would so cavalierly rewrite what made Star Wars what it was to begin with.

I'll say it again, I need to set up one of those poll things because I would bet that the vast majority of the people who are happy with Luke, Han and Leia's fates and the ST as a whole like "Ben Solo." Those of us who aren't happy don't.

It's not their story any more, as you all keep telling us, so the ST is a weird hybrid of "love these new characters while we kill your favorites."

And Collective You keep telling those of us who are unhappy that we're watching the movies wrong and what did we expect would happen to Luke, Han and Leia (and Lando, Chewie, the droids). I can say "not that." I was not remotely expecting that. We keep being told that us expecting anything else was unreasonable. It's not. There's also a lot worse that's been aimed at everyone unhappy with the ST but at least it's not on these boards.

 

A lot of times I hear people defend Kylo because he has Palpatine whispering in his ear since before he was even born. But if that's the case then why bother to throw the OT3 under the bus in the first place? If you want a brainwashed character that the characters have to slowly bring back over the course of three films, then do that. Have the heroes go to Jonestown and try to free poor brainwashed Ben. But don't also make his family a bunch of people who failed him. That's just adding insult to injury. It makes it seem like, even if Ben hadn't been brainwashed, he still would have fallen to the dark.

I feel like Ben Solo was written for the PT fans who think Anakin only went to the dark side because of how the Jedi Council treated him. Ben is written for people who don't want their characters to have any personal responsibility. The deck was stacked against him, woe is Kylo.

 

That whole interpretation of Palps whispering at him in the womb was proven to just be fan misinterpretation of one of the Aftermath books. The films gave no explanation/reason that doesn't throw Luke or his parents under the bus so Palps whispering sweet nothings was piled on to in order to defend poor Benny/compare him to Anakin from the get go. But that only works for those who think Anakin can blame his behavior on Palps too.

I feel like he was written for the PT haters who just wanted him to be evil from the get go because Anakin wasn't.

 

Who hated the PT because Anakin wasn't evil from the "get go"?

 

Gees, you expect me to remember names and dates? I've seen many times where people will complain that he was a kid, he was too emotional, he's wasn't enough of a bad ass, he wasn't evil enough etc.

 

and he said yippee. That was probably me

 

full @PendragonM

 

Were those complaints aimed at him not being evil from the onset of TPM though? It sounds like those are completely different criticisms. Before this goes on any further, my point is that the only time I ever heard anyone state that Anakin should have just started off, from the onset of Episode I as an evil person, was Lucas himself, when he created a strawman as for why people didn't like his movies. I've never heard anyone ever claim that they wanted Episode I to begin with Darth Vader killing people so I was asking if you had actually run across anyone making that specific criticism. It doesn't seem like you have.

 

I don't know about from the get go. But I do think a large number of people thought we'd be getting 2.5 movies of Darth Vader before the suit, and then Darth Vader with the suit. That his slide from Anakin would be quicker, and we'd get a lot more Vader hunting Jedi scenes.

 

This. ROTJ is actually on the verge of a very sad ending with the Luke fire scene until Luke is pulled back by his friends "into the light." as the book says. It is bittersweet before the end Ewok scene. the fireworks in the sky with the Vader pyre is a nice contrast.

 

I believe Lucas says himself, that those around him were pushing for a dark ending. Maybe even Hamill was interested in it. And that he was adamant about a happy ending. It is a fairy tale after all. The bittersweet ending is perfect.

 

Clearly this is what we are talking about here. It all boils down to personal taste. I am not attempting to speak for ALL Star Wars fans. I am simply offering up my thoughts as a fan who cares about and loves the characters of Han and Leia very much. I don't begrudge anyone who dislikes it, but this it's worth pointing out that, like mine, yours is just one viewpoint of millions and not a collective representation of all. Is it?

This seems to be a bit off topic, but sure....set up a poll. I mean, if you fundamentally don't like the ST story, I don't know what to tell you. I am not trying to convince you that "you don't get it" or "you are watching it wrong." I am simply telling you what I like about Star Wars. You are the one hanging out in a forum devoted to movies you dislike.

You put quotes around this, but I never said what you typed. That's your phrasing.

Questions:

-What do I keeping tell you/us?
-Who is the "us" you are speaking for?

Nope. I never said you were wrong, etc.

I suggested that maybe you if you were wanting what Stan Lee calls "The Illusion of change" where the protagonists (despite challenges/obstacles/conflicts) basically remain at status quo. Like events in comic books. I am not saying that's "wrong." I never said that.

I am just saying that's not what I expected given this pattern/history of the saga and the classic hero stories/myths that inspired Star Wars....ergo, I am very satisfied with Star Wars. Again, I am sorry you are not.

 

One thing I still have difficulty understanding is the contrast between the respective reactions to Marvel and Star Wars. You look at Avengers Endgame, critics lauded it as a love letter to the fans. Wandavision has tons of Easter eggs and callbacks that people love. Yet with the ST, every horrible thing that happens is described as bold, risk taking, or realistic. You wanted Luke to restart the Jedi Order? Wow, why would you expect that, that's not realistic, it's the legacy of the Jedi to fail. You expected Han and Leia to be together? Look at divorce rates, c'mon, they were never gonna make it. It's just odd to me that every decision is defended as though our reality somehow equates to a fictional galaxy of "space wizards" and 2km space slugs.