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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST What do you think of TLJ 6 years later?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by RedeemBenSolo, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I think this is what they thought they were giving us. 'bad boy' who hasn't gone full evil ... yet. Like some kid who's struggling with his grades.
     
  2. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Yep. He just killed that old guy, who cares about him? We didn't know anyone on those 5 planets! (or, my fave, he wasn't responsible, Hux was - he gave the order!) Look at how...tortured he is! He just wants to be accepted...by murdering anyone who tries. He was nice to Rey, he waited until she woke up to torture her and he didn't even - she was mean to him! (I've seen almost all those arguments - well, not the "we didn't know anyone" but I did see that "Leia blew up planets too!" for blowing up Starkiller...)

    When Han can't even say "you were good once," should have been a tiny clue there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2022
  3. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him.

    Luke had sensed the dark side building in Ben for some time. He knew it was there. And did nothing about it. And when he finally looked inside, it was beyond anything he previously imagined (but had so far been cool with).

    He rightfully blames Snoke But then mistakenly blames himself for failing him in his teachings. And then doesn't mention the bigger mistake, which was that he didn't try to fix it, or even help his 'frightened boy' 24 year old nephew, who immediately then destroys the academy and kills everyone and then joins the FO and Snokeline because of that refusal.

    Luke is basically apologizing for the wrong mistake. He should be apologizing for giving up once he knew he messed up. The first 'mistake' is understandable and that even that big of a deal, when we know dark siders can be brought back. It's the later one that is the bigger mistake, the one with actual consequences, that really push Luke into being something unrecognizable. It's weird that the writer does this. He doesn't care about the more important mistake - giving up. lol.
     
  4. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    That would mess up the "poor Kylo" narrative....

    So much is messed up in the whole ST overarching plot line, but almost every problem stems back to the decision to force the characters into the story instead of having the story flow from the characters. Every one. I'll never forget RJ's producer pal saying Mark was forgetting he's the Obi Wan in this story. Well, no, he might be in Obi Wan's place but he should still be Luke. The problem is that RJ and JJ actually turned Luke into Obi Wan, who left for understandable reasons, because "reasons." They turned Han and Leia back into ANH Han and Leia because reasons. They turned their only child into a dark lord because reasons. They sent Lando to desert planet because reasons (whoever put him in the same clothes as he wore in Solo did that for even stupider reasons - as if Lando would do that!).

    It's just that all the reasons are to repeat the OT because that equals Star Wars.
     
  5. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    It certainly sounds like the original “Skyler Solo” character was actually supposed to be a lower case-d dark sider, with his lower case-f fall taking place in the first movie with his sister trying to save him the rest of the films… and that LFL and Rian Johnson still wanted that paradigm in TLJ, without paying attention to what had happened in TFA’s script, or to how switching out “sister” for “girl crushing on him” was followed by them immediately objectifying the girl.
     
  6. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Remembering that JJ and Kasdan were writing (or rewriting) the TFA script as they were in production, with stormtroopers in formation around them, it seems to me that they hadn't really figured out what they had, or what their clear intention was going to be with these characters.

    Which probably would have made writing TLJ harder as well, seeing as RJ must have started writing during TFA production. It's probably no wonder Poe was separated from Finn, and Finn was given a buddy away from Rey, if he started on the premise that Poe dies in TFA, or that originally Kylo is just a 'bad boy' who's first steps into the dark side were killing his father.
     
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  7. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Eh, while I think specifically Poe’s survival and role could be explained by the rushed and sometimes improvised nature of TFA’s production…

    …I think the treatment of the other characters would almost have to have been too far along for Johnson to truly get confused without being willfully obstinate on his part, given he was reportedly writing off the shooting script and dailies rather than during TFA’s preproduction. Most of the shooting script’s plot seem to have been kept and it’s goals were the same even after improvisation on set; Abrams and Kasdan had already settled on all of the big points, and the rewrites and reshoots were opportunistic chances to reinforce what they already wanted in a better way.

    Ridely won her role using the interrogation scene with all its creepy, vile undertones from Kylo; likewise, John Boyega had already won the role of “male lead” over Adam Driver, and the characters of Finn and Kylo Ten split off from the original male lead long before shooting. Han’s death was also likely decided on before production proper, given its import and Ford’s profile. And Kylo overall was already positioned as a Vader analogue rather than a Han- or Anakin-analogue. And what did the reshoots focus on? Re-emphasizing and fine-tuning the bond between Rey and Finn as co-leads to better showcase the relationship’s importance, which was the same before reshoots, merely realized better afterwards.

    Where I think LFL and Johnson can claim difficultly would be in predicting how the characters and story would be received by the audience… but *NOT* how they were supposed to be perceived by the audience.

    Which can be damning for LFL and Johnson, since it makes a lot of their decisions seem predicated on the audience being racist, sexist, unobservant, and cynical regarding those new characters.

    LFL and Johnson knew that Abrams’s expectations and goals were that audience would love Rey and Finn first and foremost, love their bond especially, and love to root against a Kylo meant to be a scary antagonist rather than a deuteragonist. But LFL and Johnson wanted the audience to objectify and ignore Rey, have contempt and fear of Finn being close to her, and really be biased in favor of Kylo.

    It’s much more likely they refused to acknowledge what changes Abrams and Kasdan’s told them about before production started, and then simply got a bit racist, sexist, and elitist when briefing Johnson on what they thought the story should be.
     
  8. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    I'm never going to be able to get behind this "Rey was ignored in favor of [insert character]" stuff. It's just not there. It's not in the films I'm seeing.
     
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    OK. So where is *her* story, independent of Kylo?

    If you say “she wasn’t going to have one because…” and there is no connection established between them other than a vague, shoved to make them have a connection “Dyad,” then her story was ignored in favor of Kylo.
     
  10. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    Not sure I get your point. Having a connection to Kylo means she's ignored? I don't get that. My opinion is these films center on Rey and elevate her before anyone else. Not Kylo, not Luke, it's first and foremost about her. However way she was depicted that people may (understandably) dislike, she's still the focus, and given the most positive traits and accomplishments.
     
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  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yes, it means she is ignored.

    The films do not center her after TFA. They center Kylo—Kylo’s feelings, how Kylo can be fixed. And in Rey’s case, almost all of her scenes are about Kylo.

    As far as her having a connection—we are not shown that, we are not given anything tangible or relatable that would give us buy-in. We are told she has a connection, told there is a “Dyad” and that we are supposed to find it deep and beautiful instead of creepy, and we are told that she sees good in Kylo without being shown any reason beyond “she’s a hormonal airhead” as to why she would care.
     
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  12. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    Well, you're seeing things that I'm just not. I don't like the Reylo and Dyad stuff, but I can't say they didn't show them connecting; a lot of TLJ involves them talking, using powers, and fighting alongside each other -- I'd say that's ''showing a connection''. Yes, it's forced, and may not be what some people want, but it's not nothing.

    And a connection with Kylo doesn't make Rey not the protagonist anymore. I can't get behind that. Yeah, it shows more Kylo, but Rey's right there along for the ride. She's the one finding out about all this, she's the one both Luke and Kylo are sharing things with. How is Kylo feeling? He's feeling a bond with Rey. How can Kylo be fixed? Rey's going to fix him. It's very much still about Rey.

    Agree to disagree, I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
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  13. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    What happened to her in TFA certainly wasn’t the even involved in her interactions with Kylo - instead, his indignation at Luke was the focus.

    A believable perspective from her towards the serial killer and facsist in front of her wasn’t the focus of their interactions either - instead, Kylo simply absorbs her as part of his story.

    Her training certainly wasn’t the focus of her scenes with Luke - instead, his “man-pain” and angst are focused on so much that the supposed three lessons he offers to give her aren’t that.

    Her love of her friends and mourning of Han certainly isn’t the focus of her priorities in the story - instead, coddling Kylo when all he does is use and abuse her is the main program of their scenes.

    Hell, even manipulating or convincing her to be Kylo’s tool in killing Snoke isn’t the focus - people can’t even agree whether Kylo’s conning her, genuinely reaching out to her, or why she doesn’t want to murder him afterwards, because we just turn the page in the script and suddenly she cares about him.

    Face it - in TLJ, Rey’s a tool used to tell the story of how sad entitled white men with first world problems are more important to Johnson than anything else.

    She’s an assault victim made to service her assaulter without even a story telling why.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
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  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    ^^^^^ This exactly.


    It does not show any desire for a connection that would make her want to do those things in the first place, instead of telling him to get bent.

    It’s forced, which makes it creepy as ****, and she puts up little to no resistance, and we are supposed to view that as a positive.

    Exactly. She is “along for the ride.” That makes it not *her* story.

    What you just described makes it not about Rey. If she were a good character that Johnson and others actually cared about, she would have her own story—not a point of view character whose entire identity is about being a fixer of an evil man.

    So again..where is *Rey’s* story, away from Kylo?
     
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  15. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    OK, you guys seem way more inclined to talk about the disliked direction and writing of Rey, and all these charged opinions about how bad Kylo and Reylo is, than anything else, but that's not what I'm really talking about.

    Like I've said, however way she was depicted, Rey was important. Sharing scenes and showing spotlight to other characters doesn't make her not the focus anymore, it doesn't maker her not have a story just because it involved other characters. Out of Kylo and Luke, she's intended to be the hero, the light, the positive influence. Not to mention how stupid powerful she is and that she kicks and/or saves both their asses even though she's still untrained.

    I don't think we'll agree on this though. So, oh well.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don’t see “important in how she influences other characters” as actually being important, much less the protagonist of the story.

    The story should have been marketed as “Adam Driver plays Han and Leia’s Dark Side son and Daisy Ridley plays his love interest who just discovered that she is Force sensitive.” That would have been honest, and an accurate depiction of who the story is actually focusing on.

    Instead we got all the hype about “the first female Jedi protagonist” which led many of us to think that she would actually have a story of her own. Instead we got a story that was blatantly regressive with its message that “women characters become protagonists and heroes by romancing and fixing bad men.”
     
  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Let’s talk about the word “connection” here a bit - because to me, a dramatic connection between characters implies a reciprocal relationship that reveals personality aspects of the characters and informs the audience on their psychology.

    I might concede that Kylo and Rey have some kind of “appearance connection” - that at a bare bones level of “how do I find sevens about these characters?” they are necessary reference key words for each other.

    But as a dramatic connection, their scenes are worthless and kind of “disqualifying” - we’re not supposed to analyze Rey and come to the understanding that she’s attracted to verbal, physical, and mental assaults upon her person, but there’s no other real explanation for her service to Kylo, much like how we’re not discovering any real motivation or virtues in Kylo’s character. The relationship is inherently not reciprocal, as it’s entirely Rey acting as a plot tool to progress Kylo’s story, and in fact either conceals or overrides more of the characters than it reveals.

    It’s also not the case when it comes to the antagonistic connection from TFA - since a dramatic connection can be malicious as well as benign (compared to an emotional connection needing at least some benevolence), Rey and Kylo’s conflict in TFA helped flesh out Rey’s trauma, toughness, and eventually her disgust and horror at Kylo, while Kylo’s insecurities, callousness, and petulance were further fleshed out by Rey’s abhorrence towards him.

    In a lot of ways, the best way to disprove there’s an emotional or dramatic connection between Rey and Kylo in TLJ is to point out how much more substance and storytelling was done with them in TFA as enemies.
    Let me try making this argument - Rey maybe highly useful to the story yet is actually unimportant to it, but a protagonist is what Rey’s role is supposed to be, and a protagonist is supposed to be irreplaceable and often the key substance of the story as well.

    Look at where the dramatic emphases the story is supposed to turn on is - and notice that Rey is actually interchangeable or even forgettable in the vast majority of it.

    The internal conflicts we’re focusing on? Luke and Kylo’s; an accurate summation of the film’s emotional stakes and character conflicts is “Our old hero Luke is broken by his guilt at having betrayed the trust of Ben Solo, earning his enmity, but a talk from Yoda progresses Luke to accept his mistakes and have one last emotional confrontation with Kylo Ren, while Kylo Ren is enraged by Snoke making fun of his helmet, so he kills and replaces him before beginning his nihilistic revolution.”

    Rey’s role in that summary is completely skippable, because she neither causes nor experiences the major emotional highlights of that story - and any attempt to construct a summary of her emotional stakes and character conflicts requires head-canon, speculation, and writing-the-story-for-yourself.

    Rey at first seems irreplaceable to the external conflict of the story… but only as a tool that the film actually explicitly rejects as being the focus of its story, and this can accurately be substituted with tropes. “Kylo Ren uses a distraction to kill and replace Snoke as the main villain, while Luke Skywalker inspires the Galaxy with his sacrifice while the other heroes escape thanks to a Deus Ex Machina, but don’t worry, the film will make sure you know the story is focusing on Luke, instead of the Deus Ex Machina.”

    Please not how I’ve analyzed the last one: by all rights, Rey lifting a mountain should be a stereotypical “girl power” or “power fantasy” moment… but the film clearly dismisses it within its own narrative to put the focus back on Luke. Rey *is* overpowered in that scene - but it’s also one the film does not regard as actually worth talking about, and thus shows she’s a plot device there rather than a protagonist.

    You want “proof” that TLJ is ignoring Rey as a character? It literally had characters ignore Rey’s objectively more substantial contributions to the Resistance’s escape, much like how it ignored her perspective and any character arc earlier.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
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  18. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Yeah, you gotta wonder why didn't Rey face Kylo on Crait?

    Other than the story just not wanting them to immediately face off again, when they just had minutes before, it's really awkward that both Kylo and Rey end up on Crait, mere feet a part, but the story insists that only Luke can stop or slow down Kylo so that the Resistance can escape. Especially when Rey just literally did this exact thing, in the throne room, very effectively I might add, in the prior scene.

    Just playing 'what if' here:

    The movie should have shifted the duels. Kylo kills Snoke because he's had enough of his ****. He then kills the P-guard by himself, takes control of the FO and makes his way down to Crait to deal with the Resistance the way he wants to. He's about to blow up the base, when Rey emerges. In this scenario, she is never on the Supremacy. She raced back to Leia, and the group on Crait to tell her of Luke's refusal, etc. and to protect them. When the FO show up, she decides to face Kylo and try to get through to him, thinking he'll change based on her vision. Everyone thinks she's nuts, but...she's determined.

    Rey then walks out on the battlefield and greets Kylo. Kylo tells the FO to hold fire. He goes down to meet her. They finally meet face to face. We see the same discussion that happened in the throne room play out here instead. Kylo offers her a chance to join him. Mentions ending the past. Tells her I just killed Snoke. We can do this together. Rey is crying that Ben is lost and won't be her boyfriend, etc etc.. The Resistance watches from the base, amazed that their friend Rey - who they last saw go off to find Luke - is now standing out there. Then...from the back of the cave, a hooded figure emerges. It's Luke Skywalker. "Come, Leia, we don't have much time" and he points to a back entrance in the base. The Resistance escapes only to find the exit blocked by rubble. Luke force lifts the rocks out of the way, and the Resistance sees the falcon on the other side.

    We flash back to Kylo and Rey and things are getting tense. They fight over the lightsaber, force pulling like we see in TLJ, until there's a huge explosion. Both are thrown back. Kylo is knocked out cold. And Rey races off. She finds her way through the base, and rejoins her friends. She boards the Falcon, and then sees Luke, just has he vanishes and waves goodbye.

    Kylo wakes up confused and angered. Hux walks over and says something like "well Supreme Leader, you've managed to allow them to escape.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  19. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    I think that decision, plus the accompanying one to have the kids only excited about Luke in the last scene, kind for gives gives the game away for Johnson not actually featuring Rey’s story in his film’s climax. The “first climax” aboard the Supremacy was already a bit tenuous by that standard because of how Kylo-centric and purposeless-for-Rey that it was, but the fact the film then re-engaged it’s own plot arc to “raise the stakes” again on Crait for Luke’s climax *and* had the denouement put the focus on him tells you that even Rey’s substantial contribution - lifting the rocks - was more plot device than storyline.

    And while your reboot story is one way to make her the protagonist of the final arc, here’s another:

    Rey lifting rocks *can,* with the right build up and emphasis, become a climax for a protagonists story. Now, I think to do that properly, you need to do to make her subplot an actual arc with her perspective, Luke passing the torch, a rise in the stakes and pain for her rivalry with Kylo, and everything else that the Last Jedi failed at.

    Like… forget some of those “lessons” Johnson was using as an excuse to have Luke exposit on his pretentious man pain and excuses, and have him give her a lessons in using the Force while focusing on philosophy and having her struggle at that. Honestly, you *can* incorporate some of Luke’s issues here, but the goal is to make it so he does more for his legacy than an illusion, and she gets more focus than a plot device. Have her excel at some things, like Force pushes and pulls on small things, fighting, etc., but express some Luke-like “what you ask is impossible” reactions towards the bigger things, and especially show that she can get flustered and fail under intense emotional pressure. Maybe even have Luke tell her that she needs to empty her mind of everything else, but especially aggression if she doesn’t want to break everything.

    Then, after we’ve somehow fixed the mess of her reasons for teaming up with Kylo in the first place, had him beat her down and send her running rather than having her spare him, and other such correctives to make sure their conflict remains engaging, when she gets to Crait… she can’t lift the rocks. There’s too much pressure, and her anger, pain and fear of Kylo is still getting in the way. (If she’d been severely wounded or maimed by Kylo in her defeat, this could be a wonderful way to emphasize that.)

    …Then she remembers what Luke said, and finds someone to focus on - Finn - and manages to lift the rocks, though likely with some shakiness both for herself and the rocks, and just barely manages to hold them up long enough for everyone to get out. She’s exhausted, beaten, and flawed… but she’s learned her most important lesson.

    Have John Williams score this like the climax, and edit it and the Luke scene to show that Rey’s taking over from him, and I think “lifting rocks” can be a climax.
     
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  20. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Yup.

    Or hell, even thinking about the dyad, if that really was something set up from the beginning, make the the thing that made Rey 'so powerful' in TFA. She and Kylo 'connected', face to face, and it opened some stuff up, without her even knowing, just by one of the half of the dyad being near the other. Maybe Kylo felt it too, this surge of weird force power that's only there when he's near the other half.

    But when she gets to Ahch-to, and thinks she needs training to reign in some of this out of control power she has, nothing really happens. It's gone. She has to start over. She has to be able to do this stuff, without the dyad's 'magic' boosting her natural abilities. And she finds it's really hard. All of a sudden, the force isn't just this easy thing you can do in a day. And we see her having trouble even lifting rocks.

    Add in the 'force connections' with Kylo, where she can sense it, but it's out of reach...and she realizes something is up here. Maybe we can work together.

    Then...finally...when she gets to Crait and no one is around, she triumphantly lifts the rocks, all on her own, without the dyad, without Kylo, without anyone else's 'help'. Proving to herself, and the audience, that she's powerful even without the connection.

    I dunno. That's a half-baked idea, that introduces other issues. But...there's something to play with at least.
     
  21. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

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    Apr 7, 2001
    It’s amazing to me that Star Wars fans can write better possibilities for SW stories than professionals who get paid millions. Even in the last few posts here, posters have improved the lousy story told by the “pros”. While I still wouldn’t have loved the ST, at least it would have made more sense and helped Rey, and would have been better than what we got.

    I still think that the biggest mistakes that the multi- millionaire writers made was in not making Rey Luke’s daughter in what was supposed to be the continuation of the story from RotJ, and not allowing Luke to have a small successful Jedi order. These two things could have vastly changed and improved the ST. The creators of the ST blew an enormous one-time only opportunity to enhance the post RotJ SW future, both between trilogies and after the ST.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  22. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    It's not difficult when the professionals proudly declare they don't care about the story and the worldbuilding, and all that matters is the characters and the plot twists.

    And when they finish the plot of a sequel movie, before the first movie in the trilogy is even done filming.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  23. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    And they didn't really care about characters either,

    I'll give them an ounce of credit. They did come up with a couple of potentially intriguing ideas. But that's it. They never wove those concepts into its own narrative, and instead simply coped the OT story and wedged their square blocks into round holes.

    Even TLJ is at fault for this. RJ's movie is nothing more than ESB, with a few bits of ROTJ, just in a slightly different order. And then he tries to implant his ideas into that old narrative model. And that's why so much of this trilogy doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012