ST What do you think of TLJ 6 years later?

Pretty much all not confirmed information. Like I said, we learn more in the OT. Instead of this where moreso we get vague pieces of info. Also pretty funny considering how Kylo is used in the ST is arguably meant to be more personally prominent, and somehow gets either vaguely a similar amount of information, or less, explored about him.

 

There is very little about Vader explored. Beyond Palpatine you don't know why he turned. Which meant for years people created their own head canon to explain it. And many didnt like how that turned out because as many said... who wants to see Vader as a child? Or a teenager? Although did many of them forget he wasn't always Vader? That there is more beyond what they knew? I guess so. Limited imagination? Who knows.

In the long run if you cant read between the obvious lines and need someone to state Ben was a good person before he turned to the dark side. Which i guess people struggled with that when the PT came out too, then i dunno.

And yes i was probably one of those people who was arguing with people about anakin being different to Vader also. I do rememeber that.

 

With all this talk of "too much Vader in him", "Snoke had already turned his heart" and "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head", it's almost like they were going for a backstory where Ben never really got the chance to be the good person he could have been. At least as an adult/teenager.
I could have been on board with that idea if they had really committed to it and fleshed it out. Here we have a Skywalker kid, son of Leia and Han, nephew of Luke. A hero in the making! And right under their noses, despite their best efforts to raise Ben into a fine human being, Sidious and Snoke manipulate him with visions of grandfather Vader and promises of greatness. Subtly at first, so he'll think it's just his own silly fantasies, then gradually more palpable. By the time he realizes that people are actually talking to him, he's already decided to keep it all to himself - because he's bought into their lies. Before he reaches adulthood, his heart is turned, his ambitions twisted. His whole upbringing has been turned into a tragedy.

I'll tell you, that could've been a story worthy of a few sobs. But they would've had to actually tell it.

 

True, but he's already in a position of power as the child of a senator and war hero, and Jedi in the making. That's the problem for me with the whole "Snoke seduced him" stuff - with what? It's not like he's Broom Boy.

Also, the idea that Palpatine destroyed all of the heroes and then basically wins because his granddaughter is now a Skywalker hero is so bananas.

 

What is actually said in the OT is Anakin was a good friend, a good pilot, fought in the clone wars, was a jedi knight, had much anger in him, and turned to the dark side. All definitive statements about the life of this person. Not vague speaking about "too much Vader" "Snoke turned his heart" "there's still light in him".

I didn't say anything about the goodness or not of Kylo before he turns to the dark side. I'm saying that I think we either learn a similar, but more vague, amount about him as we do Vader, or we learn less about him as we do Vader, and Kylo is arguably presented as far more personally prominent than Vader is in the OT, I think that's fairly weak writing in comparison.

Palpatine doesn't win. He doesn't care about his grandaughter succeeding or getting anything. It's Palpatine. He lost because he was killed, and didn't get what he wanted.

 

Good point. I imagine, though, that someone in Ben's position can be taught to feel that he deserves more. As a Skywalker and maybe more importantly as the grandson of Darth Vader, he could've had the entire galaxy in his grasp. Ruled as he saw fit. He may have grown to resent his parents, uncle and their friends for robbing him of that birthright. If they had joined Vader instead, they could've had it all.

People with power do tend to crave more.

 

How is that Vague though? Really that says more than it needs too. its just whether you are willing to read into the meaning of the Dialogue or block it out

In a way i do think this is overthinking, because his motives before turning may not even match his motives after turning to the dark side. Whether he resented his family or not, after he turns to the dark side he is more likely to resent his family even if he didn't before. The more anger and rage you have, the stronger it makes you.

Its like the logic with Luke in ROTJ was obviously that if he gave into his anger, he would be taken by the dark side and go all the way. We can stretch that logic however he want but that is ultimately the idea. Basically becoming a darker version of himself. Now that dark version probably would become resentful of Han and Leia. Especially if Leia wouldn't turn to the dark side also. Luke wouldn't be a nice person anymore. He would become selfish, willing to do what he must, and any conflicting feelings he would have for them he would likely be fighting against. Which is what makes the dark side something to want to be avoided.

Its a bit like Anakin also. it could be argued he had no issue with Obi Wan. they left off previously in a good place in episode 3 before he left to fight grevious. Then on Mustafar Anakin is clearly resentful towards him. Because anakin now thinks of himself as better than Obi Wan. And that Obi Wan is just trying to push anakin down, when really thats not whats happening.

 

Too much Vader in him isn't a statement of personality. And Snoke turned his heart offers isn't an explanation of motive for why Kylo did anything. Like I said, either vague similar amount that we learn about Vader, or less than.

 

Same reason why wealthy spoiled rich kids want more power and money than they already have. Ben strikes me as a kid who thinks he deserves everything. And nothing was ever enough. He probably harbored resentment against his weak father, which made him insecure about himself not being all powerful. I'm betting Snokelitine didn't have to do much arm twisting.

And yeah, Palpatine outliving the OT heroes so that his clone-daughter saves the day and then takes their name after they all died is beyond insane.

 

Brainwashing would have been interesting and consistent with how the FO programmed Finn and other kidnapped soldiers.

But the ST was not interested in that story, outside of one single line of dialog. It never even informed Finn's character beyond it.

Which is a shame. For both characters.

 

Yeah I never understood this rhetoric. I do not know anyone who hated TLJ and is somehow celebrating TROS. Did I enjoy a "small victory" when Force Ghost Luke essentially told Rian Johnson that his Jake Skywalker was written badly? Yes, but that enjoyment lasted a total of about 20 seconds at most. And there's nothing substantial or noteworthy in any kind of petty enjoyment, it's just a nice little moment where I got to think "heh JJ is actually telling RJ that he messed up, nice". Suitable for a TikTok video for teenagers maybe, and nothing more. The big picture is that both movies are depressingly bad in my opinion, and dilute the Star Wars poison that was there prior to them. They lessen the gravity of Star Wars, and they turned it into another space opera franchise like many others.

Everyone lost, including Palpatine, the Skywalkers, the Chosen one and his legacy, Luke, Leia, Han, the Republic, and the audience. The only character that "won" is Rey, stealing other people's accomplishments, heritage and legacy with little to no contribution. And she won so bad, that we will probably never even see future stories with her. And if so, they will be widely ignored. Let alone the social media hate that will come with that, oh boy.

The ending of TROS felt.... grim. Jeez. Instead of hopeful and full of optimism.

 

Regarding the notion of who Ben “truly” is, and that Rey shouldn’t be able to have any sort of attraction to him, etc…

Rey *was* in Ben’s head for a few seconds during her interrogation in TFA. “You’re afraid…”, resulting with the look of a stunned, frightened boy; maybe the issue isn’t so much that Ben didn’t get the overt character treatment necessary for Rey’s mixed feelings toward him, it’s that Rey simply knows more than anyone else; certainly more than the viewer.

Essentially, perhaps it’s less about artificially propping Ben up as a potential good guy, and more about giving Rey credit for next-level empathy (whether Ben deserves it or not), and us needing to be okay being saddled with “You don’t know what you don’t know”. (Unless you’re one of those “If it’s not on-screen, it’s not of merit” or whatever; which is fine). Over many years of SW frustration, I’ve tried to spin more positive twists to justify these sorts of inconsistencies / incongruencies (of which there will always be plenty).

Call it “reaching”, whatever.

As always, IMHO.

 

Rey is our protagonist. Our proxy into this world. We should be feeling everything she's experiencing and going through. We should be relating to what she feels at all times (even if we disagree with it). If Rey knows something we don't know, that is a major problem with the writing. Because whatever she knows about Ben, that she isn't telling us, because we don't see those dreams or whatever, means we can't make the jump to share her empathy for Ben.

That this happens repeatedly in the ST, means that the writers never really considered Rey to be the protagonist of the ST. We're not following her journey, as she experiences, with her. She keeps things from the audience. Ina addition to the writers keeping her last name from the audience as well.

In the end, it means we never really get to know who Rey even is.

 

Imagine if in the OT Luke has his dream, but never shares with us (and Yoda) what he sees. Gone is the pain, the emotions, the fear, the motivation to save them. Instead he just rushes off, after telling Yoda he's got to save his friends.

Imagine in the PT, Anakin doesn't tell Obi-wan about his dreams about his wife dying. Never mentions it to him. The audience doesn't see the dream either. Keeps it to himself. All the motivation and anguish and eventual seduction to the dark side is totally removed.

That's what the ST did with Rey. (And Ben)

 

We’re closing in on 5 Years of TLJ.

Dies this thread get renamed or locked when the 4 years is up????

 

Kinda feels like we’re in TLJ Groundhog Day.

It's gonna be cold, it's gonna be grey, and it's gonna last you for the rest of your life.

 

Five years, eh? Still the best movie to come out of Disney-era Lucasfilm thus far.

Who knows, maybe Dial of Destiny might give it a run for its money!

 

Debatable.

 

FOR FUTURE HISTORIANS WHICH STUBLE UP THIS THREAD KNOW THAT BEFORE THIS POST ARE VIEWS MADE FOUR YEARS AFTER TLJ.


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AFTER THIS POST ARE VIEWS MADE FIVE YEARS AFTER TLJ.

PLEASE DO NOT LET HISTORY JUDGE TO SEVERELY. REMEMBER THIS IS A PRIMITIVE TIME WITH PRIMITIVE IDEAS BEFORE THE MANDALORIAN WAS COMPLETED, BEFORE THE ADVENTURES OF GROGU, BEFORE THE SEQUEL TRILOGY TO THE SEQUEL TRILOGY AND BEFORE THE PREQUEL TRILOGY TO THE SEQUEL TRILOGY.

MY PEOPLE STILL FEAR A RIAN JOHNSTON TRILOGY SPENDING MUCH EFFORT SAYING IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN BUT IT IF DOES HAPPEN THEY WILL REFUSE TO SEE IT.

THESE PEOPLE CALL ROGUE ONE ROUGE ONE.