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Lit What do you want from a canon Old Republic?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by PimpBacca, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. PimpBacca

    PimpBacca Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2015
    So the title says it all.

    1) I would like to see the Mandalorian wars happen with just as much atrocity's that we got in legends.
    2) I'd also kinda like to see the Vong war to return to canon but to place it in the old republic era, I just think it would be a nice break up between multiple sith wars and it would be awesome to see multiple Jedi face off against the Vong.
    3) The Hundred year Darkness would be kinda cool if it was started by Revan and some of the 50 Jedi that followed him were called Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, and Malak.
    4) I'm hoping there will be a Sith spices and that the Massassi looks like the mutated Massassi.
    5) Lord Hoth needs to be canonised and kept just as he was in legends
    6) Maybe keep the star forge as a sith weapon and have it last until the end of the Hundred year Darkness.
    7) More Ailen Dark lords!! I really don't want the sith to be a bunch of old, bold, white guys trying to rule the galaxy.
    8) Darth Bane should look like legends bane.

    So this is all I can think of, what would you all like to so?
     
  2. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Actual history.
     
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  3. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Look at the Essential Atlas and Essential Guide to Warfare.
     
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  4. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Actual progress throughout history

    No superpowered ancient civilizations, or superpowered aliens.

    No superweapons (until the Death Star).

    No long history of the Sith, make them relatively recent. And make conflicts with them be the only time we truly had galactic wars.
     
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  5. Darthmaul208

    Darthmaul208 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2013
    No Female Revan.

    Please, if they do Revan make it like the original and then there's no need for any of the SWTOR retcons.

    Don't kill off the exile.


    And for heaven's sake do not create a character called Lord Scourge who is more powerful than our two previous heroes.

    Creative names.
     
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  6. Ewoklord

    Ewoklord Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2014
    Yes Female Revan.
     
  7. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    To be surprised by an entirely new construction, with all the old Legends stuff specifically left out.
     
  8. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    This is pretty interesting.

    A question to throw out there: how long should recorded galactic history be?
     
  9. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Not sure I'm into this - the Valley of the Dark Lords on Moraband is ancient, just as it was in Legends, and Bane's weapon in the concept art looks like it could be pre-lightsaber.
     
  10. spicer

    spicer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Technology that is not as advanced as in the period from TPM onwards.

    Also, Zayne Carrick, Jarael (Edessa) and Marn Hierogryph.
     
  11. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Republic Dark Age, 1000 years of Darkness (or what ever the New Sith Wars were called). The Rakata to be kept as they were. Have the Sith WIN and destroy the Republic at least once and rule the Galaxy, before they ripe them selves apart. Also the Sith Armour and uniforms from SWTOR (they look MUCH better then the First Order)

    I actually had an idea of the Dark Age starting as a Republic civil war (with the Jedi and Sith joining) and then spiralling from there

    jasonfry, maybe about the same as before, but more 'uncertain' and more 'myth and legends'
     
  12. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2015

    That's hard to say. Technically in universe they definitely should have the technology to have recorded history go back tens of thousands of years (if not longer than that). Legends kind of went crazy with this and I'm not sure it is necessary to set books as far back as legends did. If you go back more than a thousand years or so the stories aren't going to have anything to do with what is happening presently. I'd say it's not really necessary to set books any further back then the formation of the rule of two but things that happened before that could definitely be referenced.
     
  13. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Fancy robes!
    Ancient-looking tech!
    Nobles!
     
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  14. RemusPo

    RemusPo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2016
    We already know that the ancient Sith used superweapons powered by giant kyber crystals, and the Jedi and Sith fought against one another in several battles thousands of years before the films (such as the Great Scourge of Malachor and the battle on Takodana).
     
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  15. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    - No redundant Great Schisms and Force Wars (the Hundred-Year Darkness should be the only one)
    - Make TCW Bane style armor and masks common.
    - Use Halagad_Ventor 's characterization of Darth Ruin as an experienced Jedi Master for the founder of the Sith
    - no corded lightsabers
    - no Rakata, Sith purebloods, Taung, or Celestials
    - Tie Naboo's history to the history of the Sith
    - Make Bane the first Darth
    - Use the word "Knight" in reference to both Jedi and Sith
    - Make the founder of the Sith an ancestor of Sly Moore
    - Depeding on how much importance the Sith are given in canon, the Hundred-Year Darkness should be the event that splits light side and dark like the Force Wars did in Legends
    - No silly costumes like the ones seen in the Legends Hundred-Year Darkness and Golden Age of the Sith
    - powerful aristocracy
    - older Rule of Two (Yoda knowing about it implies it's more than 1000 years old)
     
  16. KDavies

    KDavies Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2014
    Personally, I want a sense of continuity, specifically in regards to costume, design, infrastructure, and politics. The stuff that makes up history! For example, in TOR, we had officers of the Sith Empire that practically wore the same uniform as OT era Imperials. I understand that the intention was--perhaps--to have the Sith Empire absorbed by the Republic and thus their uniforms, but it just doesn't jive for me. I want to see progression. I want to know why, historically, things like rank bars were used. Why did the FO stop using them? Broader questions could include, why is so much of the architecture we see in Star Wars domed? Is it an homage to the Senate Rotunda, or does it mean something more? Is there a historical rootedness for domes, as there is for us in, say, Corinthian columns?

    My main desire is to just see care put into things. Look at costumes, look at architecture, and find a way to explain that with history. I want to see new things--like the crossguards--but I want to see how they fit into what we see later in the Prequel era and the OT. It was one of the most popular gripes with KOTOR, that lack of progression. But I think too the idea of a progressive history opens up not only new stories, but important ones, in that it allows for stories to matter, even if they aren't about the Skywalker dynasty, because they explain something about the history galaxy we know love, these stories tell us WHY the galaxy is what it is. Even if it is as simple as settling the debate around Uncle Owen's robes.

    That said, I'm in favour of seeing mostly new things. I don't want a rehash of ANH with an Old Republic skin--give us items and stories that are outdated by the time of Episode I. Every era has something new--we didn't have nuclear weapons a thousand years ago, but we did have bows and arrows-- what did the Jedi use before lightsabers, who created the lightsaber, how, WHY?

    Ultimately, I want a new world with new stories that seamlessly connect with the ones we are familiar with. But I think this period will benefit hugely from the inclusion of the Story Group; a group that can track and properly record progression and history. I think Kiri, Pablo, and co. will give us that "ancientness" we crave, the kind Kenobi hints at when he reminisces about the world before, "a thousand generations" ago...

    Or, like LelalMekha says, just give us nobles, fancy robes, and ancient tech. And maybe let us know why Sith like black so much. I mean, it does look hot.
     
  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Respect the importance of Yoda, Palpatine, Vader, and Luke. No "more powerful than Sheev ever was" characters or Sheev clones like Vitiate.
     
  18. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Legends was taking the "for a thousand generations" time frame literally to mean 25,000 years. The new canon may be more willing to go with the "it's a figure of speech" explanation.
     
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  19. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Legends had a good rule of thumb - there should be a broad outline to at least the birth of the OR, whenever that was, and the period immediately prior. I imagine that general historical textbooks in schools would definitely talk about the founding of the Galactic Republic.
    The density of historical knowledge would probably vary - there were probably 'dark ages' and periods of warfare where vast amounts of records were lost or altered in between - much like in RL and Legends.

    The Dune Encyclopedia does spring to mind as a good example. 12,000 years, maybe?
     
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  20. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Some Hidalgo tweets:

    "[Though the books aren't canon, can we assume that generally what happened in Darth Bane happened in new canon?] The description of Bane's history that's in the Ep I novel is the most solid as that came from George Lucas." (December 26, 2015)

    "[We all know that Bane is canon, but: Is his book trilogy canon too or just the character?] Bane came from George, who told Terry Brooks about him for the Ep I novel. The screen version of him is in Clone Wars." (March 29, 2016)

    "[The Sith did not form at the same time as the Jedi, at least in Legends?] George's definition was that the Sith were started by a renegade Jedi." (April 6, 2016)

    "It was originally 2000 years ago, but in TCW that started to get older." (April 6, 2016)

    "It's [in] the Ep I novel. George offered info to Terry Brooks on the Sith backstory." (April 6, 2016)

    "Yeah [it's canon], but with my caveat I posted earlier. The timeline grew by the time he got into TCW." (April 6, 2016)

    "[Reference] [Darth] Ruin was a name retroactively applied to the unnamed Jedi George described." (April 6, 2016)

    "[I thought that Ajunta Pall was the name given to the rogue Jedi retroactively?] I can't recall all that deep, obscure Legends stuff without a cheat-sheet." (April 6, 2016)

    "[So that Jedi is canon? And his name is Darth Ruin?] Nah. But there had to be a first. We just don't know the details." (April 6, 2016)

    In interviews at the time, Lucas said "thousands of years ago." My guess is that Lucas told Terry Brooks "thousands of years ago" and Brooks interpreted that as "almost two thousand years."

    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,23298-4,00.html

    LUCAS: Yes. That story also has been retold. Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. The gods are constantly tempting. Everybody and everything. So the idea of temptation is one of the things we struggle against, and the temptation obviously is the temptation to go to the dark side. One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies.
     
  21. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Yeah, another one is I want the majority of Sith history to be them following the Rule of Two... long before they went into hiding.

    Make the founder of the Sith the only one to have more than one apprentice, show him pay for his mistake, and show how one of those apprentices (Darth Bane) then outfoxed the others, killing them off one by one through traps and manipulations, until he's the only one left and established his Rule of Two.



    (And to reply to others' replies to my previous post: the Sith can still be ancient, but my point is I don't want Jedi versus Sith wars for all history. Keep them limited and meaningful, and show a progression. Not a bunch of cyclical repeats. I like keeping it at 25,000 since invention of the hyperdrive, but maybe not the Republic right away, see my thread on the Elder Houses. Perhaps the Sith still started 7000 years before the movies. But have them start as Sith order first, then centuries/millennia later they found their own empire, slowly growing and evolving, taking over most of the galaxy but never all of it, and then slowly beat back by the Jedi/Republic until they lose everything and seemingly vanish. Not a bunch of repeats. Not a fallen Jedi restarting the Sith every thousand years. Make the conflicts meaningful. Make each story unique.)
     
  22. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    I think the "thousand generations" should be a good rule of thumb, if not precise measurement. It may be poetic, but taking it literally as 20,000-25,000 years gives a sense of the sheer enormity of galactic history, over five times our own. And like our own, there should be significant gaps, incongruities, and mistranslations (and there should be translations - in Legends it was convenient to have Galactic Standard be basically static for almost all of history, but language should evolve over time).
     
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  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Thank you. Legends had so many fallen Jedi restarting the Sith and so many Sith getting brought down by betrayal that you wondered why members of either order bothered training people.
     
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  24. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    I believe Asimov noted this - in Foundation and Earth, they mentioned that the letter 'R' reversed itself thousands of years prior, for instance, and the robots on Solaria - with a separation of language development by almost 22,000 years - were not understandable except by a historian.
    And of course, the ultimate of retcons - unless a story is actually set in a certain ancient period, established history may, in fact, be wrong - which may be a plotline in of itself. (Which is why, I think, that IU sourcebooks are preferable to OOU).
     
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  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Recorded doesn't have to mean... properly recorded. Star Wars is a fantasy set in space, so we don't necessarily need to think of their recording technology as something on par with their space technology. Perhaps the annals of the Old Republic go back around 25,000 years or so: but who says they're actual history? Perhaps they're reconstructed history, myths taken as fact or oral legends that were later written down. I think that's the approach I prefer, both because it matches real history (The Greeks and especially the Romans made up or changed so much of their early history, and wrote about it later). It's also nice because it means an early Republic story doesn't have to tie things down, because it's not necessarily the absolute truth -- even if it's something we get in a guide or a novel.

    Perhaps it's just what the people in the GFFA's present *think* happened in the past. Perhaps they fully believe the legend. Even if it's rather hard to believe, like a single ruling dynasty (concubinage or no) ruling Japan for over two thousand years without a lack of heirs at any point. The Republic may have exaggerated republican values and heroes. The Empire may have gone back and changed the records. People may honestly just not remember, or the true histories got lost or buried over the weight of exaggerations and self-serving alterations. All sorts of things like that could occur for history to *appear* like history, without actually being true. That is, after all... history.

    As for what I'd like to see? Oh, you know:

    Coruscant. Old-school Senate house. Nobles and aristocrats with fine robes and armor and retainers. Diplomacy and old-fashioned gallantry as the rule of the day. Valorums and Organas and all those fine old families (Elder Houses now?). Core Founders. Golden age of the Republic, or founding eras. Initial struggles that explain (here's where the myths come in) why things are the way they are later on. Aesthetics and mannerisms that aren't just stolen from the movies (e.g., the bad guys shouldn't have British accents just because they're bad -- that's a Coruscant thing). Old timey battles between old timey states -- perhaps Core Worlds vying for supremacy amongst each other, or the nascent Republic proving itself as the model for galactic governance versus some other prototypes of rule. I want a sense and a weight of history upon what we see: a sense that these struggles will echo through to the movie era.

    Oh and I'm totally uninterested in Jedi or Sith stuff. I'm sure they'll show up and have a place because Star Wars (and because people will want to see early versions of them), but I don't want them to dominate everything like in the EU. Lets tell other stories.