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ST What does the ST add to the Saga? What is its story purpose?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    It's based on "news" from a guy called Doomcock, which tells you all you need to know.
     
  2. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    @Darth PJ
    Did you read my edit?

    Was curious if you noticed that stuff.
     
  3. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Sorry - your edit passed me by... I'll have a look now... :)
     
  4. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Re. the reshot version of Ian. Never noticed that. I'll have to check it out. I always remember that the ROTS game I had on the Xbox (prior to the release of ROTS) had inserts of the movie in it... and I remember there was an additional line of dialogue from Dooku, in the duel scenes, that wasn't in the actual movie... so I'm guessing they were editing ROTS down to the wire. Yes, I'm a big music lover, so I noticed the edit of Williams' score... I prefer the OST version personally.

    Re. Anakin when he's a Sith. Yes - good call. Hayden seems to have 3 distinct styles when playing Vader... the calm and cold version (speaking with Padme and Palps), the melancholic version (when he's on his own, reflective during the Mustafar eclipse, and the tears roll down from his face) and the 'shouty'/angry version that you mention. I have to say that I actually like both the delivery and Hayden's acting during that initial confrontation with Obi-Wan. The way Anakin paces like an animal has (IMHO) a direct call back to Maul versus Qui-Gon. I guess different people will prefer different versions, but I have to say that I actually really like the way Hayden mixes it up in his delivery, as it adds to the sense that this is not yet Vader from the OT, but there are glimpses. I find it interesting that Anakin/Vader (and this may be projection on my part) once he's donned the Vader suit, becomes much more introverted as a character, and much more in control of his anger/emotions. And when I now watch Vader reach out to Luke on Cloud City, or when he looks into space on the Endor landing platform, I immediately think of the tortured Anakin looking out to the Mustafar ocean of lava and fire, fully cognisant of how far he's fallen and what he's forsaken in that process...
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I played it briefly on my friend's ps2, after seeing the movie. The line I think you are referring to is "Do not aasume because there are two of you, that you have the advantage."
    Maybe a reference to the fact he is going to remove Kenobi from the fight on Sidious's orders? Plus two Jedi vs a Sith didn't work out great in TPM and AoTC. :D

    A funny moment the game created was during much more of an actual fight between Anakin and Mace, during the turn scene, Mace is telling Anakin he is corrupted by the dark side and Anakin is making dark quips about the Jedi as traitors. Then you kill him and we get the final cut's clip "What have I done?"
    The contrast with the sudden regret was unintentionally hilarious.

    I'm really into music too. It stuck out like a sore thumb when the dvd was released. The original was a bit more abrupt, I wonder why they extended it.


    Agreed. I've long headcanoned that Vader in the OT isn't completely the same Vader as post-turn pre-suit Vader from ROTS... but the unmasked Vader was still unstable and in great conflict, gradually losing sight of his original motive for turning as he is further corrupted... until he finally realises it has backfired with Padme's death and it was all for nothing. He then walls himself off for what seems like it will be forever because he doesn't want to associate with who he was... it is too painful. After all the volatility is burned out of him we get the cold-calm-collected guy from the OT. And yeah as a spark of conflict returns with the discovery of Luke, it is like the instability has returned in the opposite direction. At least in my reading it is like a growing flame that is fanned by Luke's repeated refusal to fight him and Luke's stubborn faith in his potential for good.

    It isn't spelled out to the audience but watching 1-6 the intent is pretty clearly there.

    And being honest, and to tie it back to the general topic, I admit Kylo turning back was presented a little too easy in light of Vader's own struggle to be free of the self-imposed prison.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  6. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Also, your last sentence was really well put. That fits.
     
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  7. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    I think the "yay, they are retconning the ST" I`ve seen around is nonsense. Noone in their right mind would dump their investment like that. On the other hand, I`m not totally counting out them feeling out a multiverse approach. They are doing it with their hottest property, the MCU, so why not with SW? It is nowhere near what they initially wanted, a clean, crisp singular super-connected universe where all movies, books, comics etc were part of equal canon but they can`t handle that anyway. We already are at "well, it`s canon as long as another source, like especially a new movie, doesn`t supercede it".

    If they can`t get a united strong fanbase behind one timeline, they would probably make more money by doing pocket universes and alternative timelines.
     
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  8. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    That reminds me... there was another insert from ROTS in the game, which was the "what have I done" scene... but edited slightly different. I actually preferred how it was edited in the game... but maybe that's just because I watched it over and over on the Xbox before seeing the actual film.

    The piece, Anakin's Dark Deeds, is very symphonic... so I'm assuming Williams perhaps scored it prior to seeing a cut (maybe to a pre-vis) and then Lucas re-edited the scene when shot, which allowed Williams to add an extra couple of bars?
     
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  9. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I agree... although it makes you wonder why the concept was so readily included in Rebels, and that in it, Palpatine was (seemingly) trying to get control over space and time.
     
  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I wondered about that myself.

    Although if my memory serves the cinema release had the version closer to, if not identical to the official soundtrack. The dvd was different. The scene, don't quote me on this, I think may have had the visuals slowed down for the dvd. It felt like the Separatist bodies being shown and Anakin looking a bit manic (not the tear, before that shot) has different timing on the dvd... which is where I believe the two or so extended bars play. I watched both versions a lot of times and it was clearly closer to the soundtrack originally (which I own and it is one of the best movie soundtracks Ive heard... Anakin's betrayal and Anakin's dream are my faves but the whole cd showcases John William's range). I prefer the original release because the "soul eclipse" as I like to call it was right on the musical blast and it emphasised the visual starkly.

    Also the musical transition from Padme and Obi-Wan with "I'm so sorry" to Vader is a brilliant moment, and even (not my observation) has a juxtaposition between the trickling fountain at Padme's apartment then the roaring lavafalls.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  11. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Wasn't the same guy mocked before TROS with having crazy rumors but they actually were true (or at least planned)?
     
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  12. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Feige's #1 Fan and Ryan Church Aficionado star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Doomcock is a name that commands considerable respect in many cultures.
     
  13. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    I have never heard about these changes. I spent the last half hour online looking them up and found nothing mentioning them. The Star Wars films and the changes made to them are very well documented. I can find only two known changes to the DVD release of Revenge of the Sith. A wipe transition was removed for the DVD and later put back in for the BluRay. Vader's "Nooooo" and the transition between that shot of Vader and the next shot was changed a bit. Then there are later changes for the BluRay and 4K.

    I'm fascinated by what you're saying. Do you have anything you could provide in the way of evidence for the complete reshot version of Ian McDiarmid and the change to the music? This is sort of a big deal. More than a few people will be very interested to know about these changes. Please let me know if you have any more info.

    Thanks for bringing this up!

    Doomcock is fine, but for a less theatrical and more on point telling I prefer CatastrophePuss.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I no longer have the downloaded cinema version anymore, but others here noticed the Palpatine reshoot. Watch the "but General Grievous has escaped once again" moment on the dvd. At first it appears just to be more zoomed in than the cinema version, but I compared the audio back in the day, and it is a new recording with Palpatine speaking a little less mysteriously in tone. He states it more matter of factly now, less suspiciously. I can only hope someone else actually remembers because I have noticed others mention the Palpatine change a couple of times here before.

    The delivery of "But with Count Dooku dead he is the leader of the droid army" seems a little more casual as well somehow. Does anyone here have a good recollection of their cinema experience? Honestly just watch/listen to Palpatine there. It is a very different facial look.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  15. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    The music for Anakin on Mustafar - listen to the official sountrack. The loud "da-daa" happens sooner, if you watch the dvd it has more music before it. The visual used to have that music blast on the eclipse image, I'm surprised people don't talk about it.
    Does anyone else recall the music reaching its crescendo as the eclipse was shown?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  16. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Sigh. Somehow CBN, The Express, Movepilot, Movieweb, We Got This Covered, and the Rooster of Doom have returned. They are fleaks. There won't be any cancelling of TLJ and/or TROS. Search your common sense young You Tube padawan.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Yup. Especially the one line where Vader yells “Ahsoka!” and it’s Lanter and Jones staying it together, but edited like the Jones voice box is breaking out.
    Saying the writing was less driven in TLJ for Rey is a good way to put it;

    - There’s some scenes where she’s part of the dialogue with Luke, but her purpose is more to field the questions the audience is asking, and not to debate Luke character to character, so it’s closer to an “assisted Luke Monologue” than a regular dialogue, if that makes sense.
    - And I think her scenes with Driver in TLJ were just kind of “timed” too quickly in TLJ, where it skips past the more meaty dramatic moments the storyline could have... and I *would* argue that Johnson is simple writing and directing the character with a bit more of a passive, “traditionally female” voice that clashes with the character’s personality in TFA and leaves Ridley awkwardly trying to infuse some backbone and attitude where the story doesn’t really give her one.

    She still does a very good job at injecting personality and emotions where she can, but Abrams gave her more clear material and more consistent characterization to work with - for one thing, I think his decision to have Rey treat Kylo as the monster and sand safe Ben for her sympathy gave her greater character clarity to work with, even if I think the “Ben crush” part was still bad in a storytelling manner.
     
  18. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I agree with all of this completely. Without a doubt TPM was carrying a weight (expectations/hype/etc) that TLJ was not. That alone is a major reason why I think TPM was more divisive. The consequence placed on TPM was enormous.

    Yikes. Certainly I watched the movies. I absolutely love the PT. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you with my words. I actually like Anakin in the PT, but I also think many fans relate to what @anakinfansince1983 said here:


    This interesting. Explain more why you think Han Solo is narratively overrated. I have never heard this take before.

    1. Which character traits in TCW do you find incongruous with Anakin in the PT?
    2. Isn't George Lucas to blame for (what you seem to be calling) Anakin's mischaracterization in TCW? Meaning, the show was created by the very same man that created the PT and he called the shots on how Anakin was going to "be" on the series.

    3. Why are fans to be chastised for preferring TCW's depiction of Anakin over the PT's depiction. They are both canon, official, and straight from George Lucas. Are they not?


    Again, I don't think that people are necessarily omitting scenes*. They are just few and far between. As was said, some viewers walk away from AOTC (and even ROTS to a certain extent) remembering Anakin (even in his non dark side moments) as a bit of a whiner/complainer/etc.

    *What scenes of Anakin in the PT would you point to as being those people "omit"?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  19. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    I named a rooster that once. He was doomed to be dinner. Delicious bird. Terrible alarm clock.

    Thanks for the insight. I'll check it out. I saw RotS many times in theater and do not recall these changes on home video. But 2005 is so long ago now. The audio mixes have definitely changed over time on all the films. I just wish there was some proof for these changes. I can't find anything about it online and sites the document these changes are beyond through.

    Still new changes that slipped by are being found to this day. If anyone else remembers what @HevyDevy is saying please chime in. Especially if you have proof of these changes.


    So the sound track is different from the movie. You think the movie used to be the same as the soundtrack but was recut for the DVD release? Very interesting.

    That said the sound track often is different from the films. Alternate takes are used. The movie cut up the music. The soundtrack might cut up the music. etc. etc. etc.

    If you have any more info please post it.

    That's one thing the ST has not done that the OT and PT did. Change the movies on home video. From the start there were many versions of each Star Wars film thanks to the different sound tracks and there being 70mm and 35mm prints. So even in theaters there were different cuts and different sound mixes.

    With the ST there doesn't seem to be any changes. No additions or reworked shots for home video. The only change I can find is longer credits for TFA which tracks in additional music over the longer credits. That's it.

    For as much as different versions got people frazzled over Star Wars and furious at George Lucas it was fun to see the films organically evolve. I also liked the discussion around them.
     
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  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    @Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid
    Another obvious one was Mas Amedda's video message to Bail as he, Obi-Wan and Yoda arrive back on Coruscant after order 66.

    "He'll being expecting you" sounds a little plainer. The original scene had Mas Amedda sound a little more sinister, possibly implying he was in on Palpatine's true intent. They toned it down for the dvd.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  21. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Do you think it's a new performance or a change to the audio mix? I think a change to the audio mix is not just likely but probable going from a theater to DVD. I'm not so sure about visually changing the movie.

    Also these Star Wars films can feel a bit more 'heavy' or 'momentous' on first viewing compared to other movies. Palpatine's line of "Leave us" in the Opera box felt like mind control the first time I saw it. The 'snoke' or 'cheat death' music playing. The way everyone else in the box stood up at once without hesitation like puppets. Clearly Palpatine controlled them.

    On later viewings the scene never had that huge impact again. It was being there in the moment on that first viewing. The film wasn't recut later. I was just familiar with Revenge of the Sith at that point.

    I really do like Revenge of the Sith. The worst part about it was seeing it that first night was knowing there wouldn't be more. Just when George Lucas got it right he wa done. He got the technology to work. He had the story. And it was over.

    Of course we had the Clone Wars and lots of other things later. And we'll always have Revenge of the Sith. For me that's the film when digital filmmaking came into it's own.
     
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  22. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    ROTS is the most important movie in the Saga (9 movies) IMO. I adore the Prequels.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I thought it might be at the time, but after several watches I could still tell. The one I know for sure was changed was Palpatine and Mace discussing Grievous. It is a reshoot, the camera is closer to Palpatine and tbh his face looks a little older. I know it wouldn't have been that long since filming but this one visually changed, I'm 100%

    Did you watch the scene?
     
  24. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Revenge of the Sith made me a true fan. I saw the OT in '97 and liked them enough, but ROTS blew my mind. It made me appreciate the OT more as well, although the originals can work perfectly fine alone too.

    There were two elements - the initial "whoa so that is how it happened" then watching it again and again it started to feel like the most important piece of a puzzle.

    And true what you said - it was like we just hit the peak and it was quickly over. It was so final. Good times.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  25. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    I know that one of the things the Rise of Skywalker Art Book talks about how going back to 2014 was the idea that Leia was going to break through to the Villain thus fulfilling her destiny as "The Other" and that was a Dave Filoni Idea.

    So while maybe not in it's greatest form...Because of the Death of Carrier Fisher, I do think they tried their best to add to the line "There is another" with Leia.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020