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ST What does the ST add to the Saga? What is its story purpose?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Is this the scene on the landing platform? I watched it again just now. Other than the newest transfer looking spectacular that's how I always remembered it.

    I'd love to see the orignal version you saw. Are there any screen captures or better yet video we can watch of the theatrical version?
     
  2. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    He's overrated in the sense that his popularity is mostly founded on audiences finding him cool so more often than not, you see people want his character traits to be in other characters where they don't fit at all.

    I often see unlikable traits in a character being used as examples of why a character that has them is poorly-written and Anakin's no exception to this, resulting in people largely missing the point of who that character is when something like TCW is made. It's like if someone read Berserk and then they remade Berserk with the goal of making Guts a more approachable fellow. Which is silly.

    OK, to start with the second question, while Lucas wasn't the only one working on the series, it also wouldn't surprise me if he had a large role in changing Anakin's characterization after being constantly criticized for it in the PT (even if most of those criticisms didn't hold much water to begin with). So, I'm not really going to make a big thing out of blaming him since I can definitely sympathize with the change but I'm not about to say that Lucas having been in charge of it made it a good change. I'm still going to call his character watered-down because it basically is. There's just no going around that, unfortunately.

    As to your first point, I'm not going to make a list but if you want a general idea of what I mean, I'll put it this way. I had a discussion with @Deliveranze some time ago about this exact issue and we kind of both agreed that TCW Anakin's problem is that the show's interpretation of him reminds me way more of a character like Nathan Drake from Uncharted than someone like Anakin really should. That comparison should demonstrate the incongruity I think is present between his TCW portrayal and his prior portrayals in the PT and Legends.

    It's interesting that people just kind of settle on the "whiner/complainer" view of Anakin when one of the scenes that I think defined him right during the first 20 minutes of Revenge of the Sith was when he was picking up Obi-Wan after his duel with Dooku. Palpatine tells him that he should be left behind because if he isn't, the three of them will never make off the ship. Anakin just looks at him and says, "His fate will be the same as ours." Meaning, with all we know about Anakin, that he's willing to die for the chance that Obi-Wan can survive. Which is pretty significant.

    There's also that point when Obi-Wan and Anakin were flying toward the Invisible Hand and Anakin says that he's going to go back and help the clone pilots that are getting torn apart behind them, only for Obi-Wan to tell him that they're doing their job and that they should keep going with only the reminder of the importance of the mission at hand stopping him from doing so. So like, that's two instances within the same sequence right at the beginning of a film that show his loyalty is so fierce that he would die for his friends and comrades. Which I guess we can agree is a heroic quality that is woefully overlooked in a lot of discussion of what Anakin's like in the films to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  3. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    Nope most of what he said was proved not to be true he did post the TROS leaks like we saw here on the foums but he gets no insider information. The guy's channel is terrible IMO. One of those channels that feeds off the negativity in Fandom and turns it into a YouTube Career. Everytime I have watched part of his videos I had turned them off because they are awful

    The only truth I can see to this would be them having some serious discussions around reviving legends in some shape as with regards to creating this rumor. As to to their being a "multiverse" or Star Wars content but I can't see them doing anything like that on screen if anything it would be books and comics with the legends banner back and possibly the infinities banner those were cool comics. I can't see them making any type of Multiverse that would confuse film audiences.

    There is an entire Legends trilogy that Disney is sitting on the Sword of the Jedi that LFL paid for so they could release that if they chose.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  4. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    This begs the question: What is it that makes Han Solo so popular, cool, and beloved with audiences? Like Anakin, Han has a lot of unlikeable traits and tendencies. He is arrogant, selfish, self absorbed, hot headed, etc. Yet, I would argue that the character of Han Solo is a better written, better executed, and better realized character than Anakin in the PT.

    Audiences were made to care about Han Solo in a way that, for many, they weren't with PT Anakin. Han (despite his character flaws) is simply more likable. He has charisma and charm that make his character magnetic despite the character's flaws.

    All of that said....
    It's not that Anakin has to be written like Han at all. Anakin could have been written more like Leia, Lando, Luke, or any number of characters audiences connect to. Bottom line: Many audience members wanted Anakin to be more likable, relatable, or have some quality that makes us want to root for him. People wanted to connect with Anakin in some way, and for many, that didn't happen.


    Anakin is a protagonist. Don't you think it's important for audiences to be able to relate to, identify with, or "like" the character in some regard?

    Ask yourself: Why would Lucas change Anakin's characterization? If it's truly (as you suggest) that fans "misunderstood" the characterization of Anakin in the PT, is that not an indication of a failure of some kind in the writing/acting/execution?

    You seem to be claiming that people that like TCW Anakin are fundamentally misunderstanding the character?

    You can sympathize with the change. Can you explain that more?

    I hear what you are saying, but doesn't the buck stop with George Lucas?

    Can we not flip this around and argue: Perhaps you just didn't understand the characterization Lucas was going for in the TCW?

    You see what I am saying? If both the PT and TCW are from Lucas, who's to say which characterization of Anakin is Lucas's true and preferred vision/version? I mean, Lucas has been infamously known to change his mind/intent on all things Star Wars.


    I agree this is a great moment of heroism from Anakin as is the following sequence of Anakin crash landing "half a ship" and saving everyone. These moments are abound in TCW (as are moments of that display Anakin's flaws/darkness/destiny). However, in the PT, these moments are not as prevalent as the "whiner/complainer" moments in the PT.

    Consider: A few scenes after his amazing heroics, Anakin is back to his whining ways about not being a Jedi master despite being on the council. It's not the fact that he is upset about it, it's that Anakin expresses his displeasure in a most petulant, childish, irritating way. For some of the audience it is hard to empathize with him, and we actually kind of see the point of view of (and side with) Obi-Wan and the council. I mean, it's just hard to sympathize with the guy in many instances. Maybe we are not supposed to? If so, this is problematic* as well.

    Yes, this shows his loyalty, but it also shows a strong independent streak that is also fully explored/illustrated in TCW. Again, I don't dislike Anakin in the PT, but I do think that character is a bit more empathetic/likable in TCW.

    *I don't buy the argument that audiences aren't supposed to find Anakin likable, or relatable. The more audiences care about Anakin, the more tragic his eventual destiny is. If audiences think mostly he's a whiny, petulant, dick.... they kinda just wish he'd shut up and become Darth Vader already. No?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  5. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    @jaimestarr

    Han and Anakin are apples and oranges. They are both real characters, which means have both virtues and flaws, aren't just one or the other, but Anakin did some really questionable stuff that Han couldn't touch. It's hilarious that GL sanitized his shooting Grido.with "Greedo shoots first" but went full unhinged child slayer with Anakin. Point being, the fact that Han never did anything controversial and was a character with a lot of levity (which Anakin really wasn't) give him an edge in likability department. moreover, Ford was one of rare true movie stars.
     
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  6. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Hey, I agree. I am responding to tales of atmora's claim that fans want Anakin to be more "like Han."

    I am saying that it's not that audiences wanted Anakin to be "more like Han" per se. It's that they wanted Anakin to have more moments in the PT that we loved/liked/identified with him. I feel that TCW delivered on this front better than the PT while still maintaining Anakin's flaws/darkness/conflicted-ness.
     
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  7. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Who knows why George really changed Han shooting Greedo first? I suspect it was because he ultimately reflected on the films, and thought Han shouldn’t be a character that kills so easily? After all, in the OT, Han gets to live a ‘happy ever after’... (oh what little we knew)... whereas Anakin kind of flushes his life down the toilet. He pays the price for his sins.
     
  8. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    I see. I don't think that being more like Han would have suited Anakin given their backgrounds. Anakin was always going to be more tense rather than laid back due to being raised among the Jedi who didn't really trust him. Also, we saw Anakin in relation to Padme a lot and that was forbidden love heading into tragedy, not a romcom courtship that GL was going for with Han and Leia. So different characters altogether. I do understand why some fans wanted Anakin to be different but I think that Han isn't the right comparison.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  9. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I don't know how much more fully explored you wanted it to be. In AOTC, he goes out of his way and beyond the limitations of his mission to help find his mother. In ROTS, within the same exact sequence, he not only nearly risks a mission of critical importance because he wants to help a group of clones who covered his approach (despite those clones being viewed as disposable peons) but he also tells the man who has been supporting and grooming him this entire time, the Chancellor of the Republic, that if they all die because Anakin wanted to save Obi-Wan's life, then so be it. Like, how does that not demonstrate what you're talking about?

    It sure seems like TCW is being given credit for something the PT already did while presenting a version of Anakin that is far less interesting. Besides, I don't think it's necessarily hard to relate to Anakin in the PT at all, especially when people realize right from the get-go that his story is meant to be much more different than of the preceding trilogy.

    See, that's kind of part of his character. You can't applaud his independent streak in TCW and then for some completely arbitrary reason, crap all over him for being "petulant" when those things often go hand in hand. Not to mention all the context people ignore in that scene for why he acts that way. I'm often reminded of when people often laughably say that they can't see this Anakin become Vader as if Vader wasn't similarly petty (i.e. choking out his subordinates whenever they failed him).
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  10. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    People are petulant in such situations so that was a realistic characterization. Also, Jedi decision was infuriating and exactly the kind of mistake Senate knew they would make. Which is why he set the trap. They fell into it entirely by their choice.
     
  11. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Of course. It still doesn't change that the decision ultimately resulted in a sanitized version of who Anakin is that made him far less unique than he was before the show.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  12. Starith

    Starith Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2020
    Yeah, I think they went overboard with the "Han" portrayal of Anakin in TCW. It was enjoyable at times, but other times it was too off.

    I don't mind that Anakin isn't a perfect role model who always does the right thing, I just think his character and story is interesting. But that's just me. I tend to dislike the "Character A is a bad role model, so they're a bad character" complaints.
     
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  13. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    I've written about characters that "whine" before:

    That's an example of why the ST has little purpose to me, or at least one that is at odds with the brand of drama that made me appreciate I-VI. Severe downgrade in characterization, going from Anakin in the PT to Kylo in the ST. The former feels more like a multifaceted character from a novel. The latter reminds me of a cartoon villain who would've been at home on whatever show was on after ThunderCats.
     
  14. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Thanks. I don't watch any of the SW YouTube channels or rumors because I've found issues with each one I try. I get the summaries in articles based on those vids. There is one YouTuber that I mostly agree with on SW items but they have a entitlement angle that's clear to me.
     
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  15. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    *I* personally thought that Anakin's independent streak was well explored in the PT. Yet, there was a heavy layer of immaturity (even in ROTS) that went along with it.


    I don't understand what you are saying here. How does Anakin being petulant and being independent "go hand in hand." These two characteristics are not automatically tied together. One can be a free thinker, not follow rules, march to their own drum without being sulky, childlike, and prone to tantrums.

    A decision that was made by George Lucas for some reason. You clearly think that there is major incongruence* between PT Anakin and TCW Anakin. Again I ask: Why do you think George Lucas changed the characterization?

    *I actually think the characterization isn't vastly different. The execution plays differently because of differing formats, etc.

    I realize that you don't find it hard to relate to Anakin in the PT, many audience members did. While not a reflection of my feelings on Anakin, nor the PT, I find that this article reflects/describes the prevailing sentiment for a section of the fanbase. Here is the section that relates to our discussion:

    "...Rarely has a villain penetrated public consciousness to such an extent. Beyond the costume and booming voice, what elevated Vader to mythological heights was his backstory. Darth Vader was once a great man, who experienced a tragic fall into darkness. What remained was a disfigured fusion of man and machine, entirely consumed by evil. This is the stuff of legends.

    So when the prequels were announced, this is what we expected to see: the fall of a great man. The first prequel was disappointing in this regard, but we were able to forgive it. It set up the story, leaving room for two films full of the great man and his fall. And so we waited.

    But the great man never came.

    Instead, we were treated to the tale of a whiny, arrogant brat who continuously defied his teachers and thumbed his nose at tradition. We were expecting a wise and powerful Jedi master. Instead, we were given a one-dimensional caricature of Maverick from Top Gun, minus the coolness.

    Anakin Skywalker, as depicted in the prequels, can best be summarized with one word: annoying. He is self-centered, self-serving and ultimately trivial. We just want him to go away.

    But alas, he sticks in our minds, making it hard to view the real Star Wars trilogy with the same reverence. The fact that annoying Anakin was superimposed into the final scene of Return of the Jedi only added insult to injury."


    Again, this is not necessarily how I feel about the PT/Anakin, yet I definitely understand this POV as it was expressed with much outrage from fans (and the general public) during the heights of the Prequel Era and beyond. This also is some of the reasoning for those that claim that "the PT wrecked/tainted/altered the OT."
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree with you—I think the Anakin in the PT and the Anakin in TCW are the same. But the focus has to be on certain PT scenes and not others, which you have done here and which I always do. I think that for some in the audience, Anakin at his most petulant is what stood out to them.

    Whereas with Kylo, until the end of TROS, all we get is petulant.
     
  17. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007

    OK, this thread needs to get back on track / topic. This thread isn't for arguing or complaining about the PT, or about Anakin's portrayals in the PT vs. TCW. This thread's primary focus should be on the ST, and how it fits into / contributes to the overall Saga.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  18. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Hear hear. I'd say a lot of characterization suffers because writing is focused on a creating a role model first or only, instead of creating a character.

    P.S. haven't seen EHT warning at the time of posting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  19. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Is Doomcock really Mike Zeroh? Hmmmmm.....

    I would say Han is more the audience surrogate, he's also funny in ANH. And for all his protestations about only being in it for himself, he makes a liar out of that several times. By the time Empire rolls around, by the end of the first act, he's saved Luke and Leia, so that's why he's my favorite (which is why a lot of what's done with his character in ROTJ is such a disaster - I don't know who the Han is who comes out of carbon freeze, honestly. The first time Kasdan can't remember how he's supposed to be writing Han, but in no way the last!)

    Also this.
     
  20. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    they are both terrible, that much is certain
     
  21. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    I don't understand how people watch those idiots. It's literally make stuff up about films and make videos what..... Also if you see their comment sections you know exactly what people they are playing to it's gross and if I made my living like that I would feel like my soul was getting dirty. Sorry @EHT will get back on topic but I couldn't resist taking a shot at those tools.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  22. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    No problem. :p
     
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  23. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Feige's #1 Fan and Ryan Church Aficionado star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    You’re all missing the point. Han is popular because he seems arrogant, cynical, unreliable, selfish, and too cool for school, but is really a softie, idealist and loyal friend underneath. Just like Bogart in Casablanca. This is a classically likable character. A good dude, but reluctant to admit it, and not as earnest as the out-in-the-open good guy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  24. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Sorry, I don't have the footage anymore.

    It is just when Palpatine is talking. A few others noticed, one person without me prompting randomly commented that they "zoomed in on Palpatine" for the dvd; but it was actually a new take entirely.

    It is only when he is talking to Mace, it has been inserted in. The camera is closer to Ian's face, his facial appearance is a little rawer, and the tone of his deliveries is a bit less suggestive.

    You don't have to believe me I guess, but this is the one place I definitely noticed it. I'm not that into conspiracy theories :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  25. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Odd. I have come across people who are not that fond of the TCW version of Anakin. According to them, they found his arc - especially in regard to his moral compass - rather ham-fisted. And they found the idea of him becoming Ahsoka's Jedi mentor so soon after becoming a Knight implausible, considering the Jedi Council's wariness of him. I don't know. I've never seen TCW.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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