main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST What does the ST add to the Saga? What is its story purpose?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Jun 24, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    I think it on JJ that Rey not becoming a skywalker and instead a palpatine. RJ thought of her being this nobody to rise and challange the legends.
     
  2. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Yes, but Anakin was originally a 'good guy'. I don't think Palpatine ever was.
     
    HevyDevy likes this.
  3. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    No one is born evil, evil is taught. if jedi found him be jedi and soley on the light. But Darth Plagueis found him molded him into the perfect sith master. All you see from Palpatine from TPM to TROS is result of Plagueis teachings and torture.
     
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    But what satisfying arc could she have without a connection to the story, and the fact Kylo was the last Skywalker?

    If she was a full nobody the story of 8 and 9 needed to be vastly different. It is the Skywalker saga yet the main 'walker refuses to train the protagonist then dies. Making Rey sole protagonist for IX with no hand in the stakes. They could have written into 8 and 9 a tragic past for Rey and Kylo somehow intertwined. That is a story that would justify Rey random.

    If you make her a Skywalker after TLJ Kylo becomes a flat-out liar and Luke becomes an even bigger jerk for treating family that way. Again, that was RJ's decision.
     
  5. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    In JJ's vision she was not a Skywalker but from darkness like Palpatine. RJ wanted a nodody. I don't think Skywalker was ever in the cards for Rey.
     
  6. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    I think that her character arc was done in TLJ but so were character arcs of Finn (done in TFA) and Poe (done in TLJ). So since the latter 2 were relegated to Rey's tagalongs (together with droids and Chewie), it wouldn't make any difference if Rose tagged along as well. There were 5 in Rey's posse + Dee Zeroh later (that's 6) and she had an important role in the previous movie, which is more than JJ-voiced Dee Zeroh could say. So I think that criticism isn't about character development since no one got it, but that she wasn't included in the adventure due to lame excuse that she was helping Leia (as if Connix, Snap, Charlie/Merry, Maz couldn't do that). It's the exclusion that people notice, and also blatant attempt to replace her with Jannah, a character who had an identical role to Rose's in TLJ (encourages Finn to fulfill his destiny, assists him in a suicide mission, rides a horse, is a part of a totally side quest). In the end, Jannah (and Zorii and Pryde basically all replacement characters) didn't make any impact so question is why they were in the movie. Rose could have done things that Jannah did and more. She could ride. She could yell Reeey together with Finn since she knew Rey, so Finn wouldn't look like a third wheel. Since Finn could feel where the signal came from, the subplot with escaped Storm troopers wasn't necessary because they were just canon fodder. But even so, if they kept Jannah, Rose could still go on an adventure since adventure as it is didn't develop relationships between characters at all. They were just shouting and running. So there was no real reason to remove Rose from the adventure other than fandom backlash. And even then, she could've had fewer lines and none preachy and detractors wouldn't mind her. I've no horse in this race but I see how they could have her around within the story as told.
     
    Darth PJ and sian1965 like this.
  7. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I agree with the idea that as the villain he did warrant a death ending, but I actually would've liked it better if they flipped the script on us, and Ben was the one who lived, since he is the one who is of actual Skywalker blood and Rey would've died, defeating her grandfather. Kind of an ironic ending-the one who was meant to be the heir of the Sith ends up defeating it, and ending the bloodline of Palpatine altogether, allowing the Skywalker name and bloodline to live on-for real, in Ben-not just by taking on the last name. Given my choice, that's what I would've had happen. Though I feel that Carrie Fisher's unfortunate inability to be in TROS is what kind of made Ben surviving an impossibility. There's no way he'd have been able to have a complete, satisfying 'turn good' arc without him interacting with her. I mean (due to uncontrollable circumstances) they were barely able to make it work the way it happened in TROS.
     
    Darth Mikey likes this.
  8. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    Luke didn't have anything good to say about Vader either. He had not known Anakin. And yet he saved him. He had more proof about his father the villain than about his father the good friend, and yet he chose his own instinct.

    By contrast, Obi-Wan didn't thought that -'good friend, a cunning warrior'- about Vader, but about Luke's father. The distinction matters, because Obi-wan made that up, and then lied about it.

    Obi-Wan had known Anakin but, according to him, he was dead. Luke didn't but, according to him, he was alive. Luke was right, and Obi-Wan wrong. The backstory was ultimately irrelevant, because Vader's backstory was in front of him, not behind him, and its name was Luke.

    Similarly, it's never Kylo, but Ben. That's what they -Han, Leia, Luke- call him. No notion of Kylo and Ben being two different persons. Just Ben. 'My son is alive', 'there's still light in him'. That puts them in the ROTJ Luke side, and the audience in the 'assume the ROTJ Luke POV to be the right analogue' side, and not in the 'assume the ANH Obi-Wan POV to be the right analogue' side. The backstory is irrelevant, as it was for OT Luke.

    Exegol Ben is basically who he might have been, a SW hero. So either we let Kylo to retrospectively stain pre-Kylo Ben and turn him into a villain, or we do that with Exegol Ben, an turn him pre-Kylo Ben into a hero.

    Or neither, and we place pre-Kylo Ben in the good side, but troubled, much like PT Anakin. After all, Obi-Wan's 'good friend, cunning warrior' was compatible, according to Lucas himself, with Anakin being arrogant, unstable and slaughtering the sand people, the women and the children too.

    That Ben -troubled Ben, let's say- looks like the more reasonable asumption, given what we know.
    And maybe his backstory has been in front of him too since TFA - I think he finally was told or shown off screen, after his exchange with 'Han' in TROS. He looks utterly changed in Exegol, and he seems to know about Rey having two lightsabers.

    Prequel material too, like Shmi and Padme in ROTJ.
    Maybe 'she's gone' was left unsaid on the bridge. But Kylo Ren was not dead then, and Leia was alive - maybe 'she's gone' would have spoiled something.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Luke didn’t choose “his own instinct,” he chose his father. Whether he had ever known him personally or not is irrelevant to me. Vader/Anakin was still his father. That biological connection was there.

    Rey had never even heard of Kylo Ren or Ben Solo until he threw her into a tree and strapped her down and told her he could “take whatever he wanted” in TFA. She had no reason to be invested in him at all. Not biology and not knowing him prior to his turn, which would be the two reasons she would have to be invested. There really is not any other, unless we’re going for something dumb and superficial like appearance or facial expressions.

    I had no problem with Han, Luke or Leia referring to Kylo as Ben. But calling him that did not tell me anything good about him. There was no description of who he was.
     
  10. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    We already know Leia told Rey about Ben before she sent her to Ahch-To.



    Vader blew up Luke’s childhood friend Biggs right before Luke’s eyes at the end of ANH.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  11. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    So. Kylo murders Han, only doesn't murder Luke and Leia due to circumstance, but lives? Really. The OT3 are dead because of him but he gets to live is while Rey, the first female Jedi lead, dies.

    I thought Kasdan's kill Han, send Luke off like Shane and have Leia alone at the end of ROTJ was a nihilistic ending. If that had happened, I would have never come back to Star Wars. Having Kylo live and Rey die would have been almost as bad.
     
  12. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    They should have at least had Rose tag along with the beginning chase.

    What was the purpose of that armless alien no cared anything about? He was an engineer?? Really??

    That could have easily been Rose.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Leia telling Rey about Kylo means nothing. There was still no personal reason to Rey, other than the most shallow, for her to be invested. Luke didn’t seek out Vader because of Obi-Wan, he did it because of the biological connection. Obi-Wan talking about Anakin as a good friend was for the audience, not Luke. It means nothing to me to know that Kylo’s mama liked him.
     
  14. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    We know that Rey in short time grew close to Han and Leia.

    When Rey saw Kylo in the force-Skype, she questioned how could he do that to his parents. So we know his relationship with Han and Leia was already on her mind.
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    And then she thought his “explanation” was reasonable.

    And it still goes back to what I said. Luke had a reason that he personally was invested in Vader. If he had gotten invested just because of Obi-Wan, that would have made no sense.

    Rey has no non-shallow reason why she personally, outside of anyone else she knows, would be invested in Kylo.
     
  16. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    No, he chose his instinct, and by that I mean the force. The biological connection was there between Leia and Vader, and it didn't make a difference. It wasn't there between Bail and Leia, and it didn't made a difference. For Leia, Bail was her father, and Vader her biological father - but her father was really Bail, and not Vader. Some things are stronger than blood.

    With Luke, the force made a difference. Unlike Leia, he was walking a jedi path. Vader's true self, Anakin, was something because of the force - because of 'magic'. The Skywalker biology, or genes, carried something greater than themselves. 'Luminous' is above 'crude matter' in this films. Some things are stronger than blood.
    There's the force, something dumb and profound. Dumb in our world, I mean. Inside a SW film, it's dumb not to believe.

    That's not new, and was a part of the Bespin scene. When Vader says 'search your feelings', the audience knows Luke has had those feelings inside even before being told the truth. The cave scene, once rewatched, is clearly about that aspect.
    But only after being told 'I am your father' he puts a face to them, that of 'father', and then Vader's face, the mask. Hence his shock. They were already there, those feelings, but they had no meaning. That's why he says 'it's impossible' and yet he knows it to be true.

    It was the truth, just like Leia's 'somehow I've always known' in ROTJ. She felt it, but she did not know what 'it' meant until told, and retrospectively.

    With Kylo and Rey that feeling, sustained by belief (on the audience's part) and by being 'factual', a law of the universe beyond biology and backstory (inside the film), is put at the center. In OT terms, Kylo vs Rey is Darth Brother/Bruder vs Leia Skywalker -same generation and hero/villain- with neither of them knowing 'it' to be true, and yet feeling 'it' and acting instinctively around 'it'.

    ANH Obi-Wan's advice to Luke is also an appeal to the audience's imagination, and against its skepticism, represented by Han:
    Reach out.
    [​IMG]
    No, with your feelings. But, sometimes, 'with your feelings' really means 'with your hand'.
    [​IMG]
    Reach out with your feelings/search your feelings. If you don't believe in that connection because you don't see it, then you are not believing properly. The X-Wing remains unlifted and that is why you fail. Mere suspension of disbelief is not enough.

    In any case, why not pushing a little harder, since you already believe in 'dumb', invisible stuff like ghosts and telekinesis and so on?
     
  17. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    I wonder that when I see anyone in the news who murders their parents. Doesn't mean I want to save that murderer's soul.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  18. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Kylo`s picture shows up on Rey`s tinder app, with the bio saying "he likes sunsets drenched in the blood of his enemies and long whinings at the beach". And she is just about to swipe left when "he also has the force" appears in blinking letters. Then "swipe right for dyad". That of course sealed the deal.
     
  19. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Cause he's really Ben. All those people he killed was some other guy. :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, I’m not buying “the Force did it” as an explanation for anything in Star Wars other than Yoda being able to lift Luke’s X-Wing out of the swamp, Luke being able to bullseye the Death Star core with his eyes closed, and similar such incidents.

    “The Force did it” does not work as an explanation for how humans/sentient beings interact with each other, and I will not accept or buy it as an explanation.

    I stand by what I said. Luke reached out to his father due to his biological connection and the image he had of his father when he was a child, which is related to that biological connection (and what Leia did not have). Not “because the Force told him to.” That’s what I saw when I watched Star Wars in the 70s and 80s, and that is what I see now.

    The Force has never been “dumb” in Star Wars, it has been a power for good. But if I had to believe that Rey is made to be intertwined with Kylo because the Force says so, then the Force is no longer a power for good, more like a power for promoting traditional gender roles. It’s the difference between the God I believe in and the god that some people think is telling women to obey and submit.
     
  21. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Aside from the issues caused by Fisher’s passing... I think this idea would again run into two *big* problems:

    - It’s still one of those things that very much threatens the purpose behind Rey, and again just doesn’t work well with having a non-Skywalker female lead if the last protagonist standing is a male Skywalker.

    - It’s still hoping the audience cares about Kylo because of who his parents are and in spite of the things he’s done to the classic heroes and his combination of unoriginal elements and despicable elements.

    Or, to put it another way: it just feels like another thing that would beg the question “...Why isn’t our main character the Skywalker here?” while undermining Rey as a character.

    And it again feels like a hard thing to fit into some kind of happy/bittersweet ending, arguably even worse than what TROS wound up being.
    And Kylo killed Han while participating in actions to try and kills Leia, both in TFA.

    Rey growing close to Leia and Han =/= caring for Ben for Han and Leia’s sake, because Ben is the doom of Han and an existential threat to Leia. It makes (arguably, mind you) far more sense for Rey to hate Kylo for what he’s put Han and Leia through and out of fear for Leia’s safety than it does for her to want to bring back their baby boy to the him he already committed patricide in.

    And Kylo’s answer about why he killed Han was a self-centered and disturbed excuse, not even really a justification, and he’s projecting certainty about it while the film still undercuts any believe that she actually has genuinely intimate knowledge of his mind. That would only reinforce

    *And*
    that doesn’t include how Han and Leia aren’t Finn, who TFA spent more time building up as Rey’s closest bond, or Rey’s own personal Issues with Kylo, both of which I’d argue should still be considered massive inputs to her approach to him that would or rent a naive and neutral approach, let alone a hopeful and compassionate approach.

    ALTHOUGH!....

    ...I think this is really more a question of how flawed/human/rough/spiteful/determined/spirited Rey is expected and desired to be. I think the thing is that the more “compassionate” version of Rey in TLJ is simply bland, shallow and superficial in depth... and that she wasn’t that bland, superficial, or shallow in TFA, and that the TLJ versions blandness, Shallowness, and superficiality are liabilities that hurt her character’s appeal.
     
  22. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003

    See, I KNEW this would become a female vs male thing. Which it shouldn't. I was thinking of it solely in terms of STORY, and the literal survival of the Skywalker line-as the episodes title implies. Everyone supported Vader turning good-after slaughtering countless people-even children. I don't see how this is any different. As far as Rey dying, I actually would've loved if they both lived-but I just went with what actually happened in the film, as Rey technically DID die. Heroes can die too and still be honored, regardless of their gender.

    Of course you are entitled to your opinion on what you'd have preferred happening. This is mine. There are no facts here, on either side-only opinions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
    sian1965 and Fredrik Vallestrand like this.
  23. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I just wanted a happy ending.
    Too much to ask for these days.
     
  24. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    It doesn't have to be a girl or boy thing, even if the optics are terrible if they kill off the first female Jedi to redeem the angry white male. Say it's Ray, a guy, and Breha Solo. I still hate her and want her to NOT LIVE because she murdered Luke, Han and Leia. Also, I didn't support Vader turning good, so...
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


    I just wanted the happy ending I had at the end of ROTJ preserved and that was certainly too much to ask for, and in fact, I've been pilloried and laughed at for even asking. So, same in theory, even though our definitions of the happy ending are completely different.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  25. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    2 things:

    - It's not just the male vs female thing (thought I think that does *need* to be considered). It’s also a likeability thing: Kylo just isn’t actually likeable enough for many people to think that he should get the happy ending, even as bland as Rey is. This may be the same “shallow” reasoning that that Kasdan thought was undermining Han’s arc when Lucas refused to kill him off in ROTJ, but it’s a valid point to make. And while I’d say TROS shows that plenty of mainstream people can roll with a lot, I’d say that backs up the point - I don’t think you’d get a sufficient payoff with a living Ben and a dead Rey... and I would argue that you’d probably lose more women and not pick up more men, and end up with a net loss in comparison.

    - Again, this idea is just begging the “Why is the main character not the Skywalker?” question again. Kylo’s a supporting character to Rey. If we’re making the end of TROS be about the Skywalker family surviving in the bloodline... then people are going to question why we’re ultimately spending time away from that with a storyline that will feel like a long, overwrought set-up or red herring.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.