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ST What does the ST add to the Saga? What is its story purpose?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    And therein lies the problem. It is all personal preference, but if one were to prefer the Skywalker line to survive (not die out, like what happened), then the ST should've posed Ben as the main character.

    Regarding the whole male/female thing, I agree it needs to be considered, but IMO a potential storyline shouldn't be shunned or looked down upon simply because it wasn't a female that the story focused on. Now if they flipped it, and changed Rey to being han and leia's daughter, and Ben being the Palpatine-and having Rey survive after being redeemed, along with the Skywalker line...that would've been just about perfect for me, hitting all the marks: Female lead, Skywalker line survives. I guess the only thing after that is if you'd prefer the redeemed villain survives or not, which seems people have different opinions on.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  2. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    I remember when Disnry bought Lucasfilm and the movies were announced, thinking "Wow this is going to be great!" based on the past success and the current track record of Marvel...

    yeah...

    The ST will always be missed opportunities for me....

    Finn - As the first Stormtrooper to ever defect from the FO, that thread could've continued into TROS with Janna and those he meets being Troopers who defected because of the stories that made their way through the ranks of what Finn did. And imagine massive legions that had defected, siding with the Resistance in the final battle...Stormtrooper vs Stormtrooper, Star Destroyer vs Star Destroyer. Instead, his example means nothing cause other Troopers already did it too.

    Poe - really could've been written out after TFA. The character was originally supposed to die, and Oscar lobbied to stay alive cause he always died in movies or something.Has an arc from TFA to TLJ that is totally forgotten about come TROS. He's not the Resistance leader (Leia is again,after clearly passing the torch in TLJ), and his learning curve of being a hotheaded d**k who learns the value of teamwork and restraint that goes along with true leadership just goes right out the frigging window in the year between Episodes 8 and 9

    Hux - started out strong, only to go completely downhill to a mere cameo in the last movie.

    Snoke - totally wasted

    Rose - I liked her character and arc in TLJ, becomes afterthought in TROS

    Artoo - TOTALLY wasted in every movie

    Chewie - I kinda wish he had died in TROS, as at least tht would've added some gravatis to Rey's story.

    Phasma - Joke. Boba Fett of the new trilogy.

    Knights of Ren - Total waste.

    Lando - everyone wanted Billy Dee back, and we were rewarded with less than 5 minutes of total screen time. Bravo!

    .... I mean, damn.... It wasn't just the OT characters who got shafted in these, plenty of new ones did as well. The more I think of it, the more I wish we did get DOTF as the concluding chapter. Not perfect by any means, but at least it would've been an actual continuation of the story we were presented up to that point rather than half retcon, half fan service. As it is, I feel the ST adds nothing but detracts from the overall saga cause it gives us a weak-a$$ conclusion to the Saga that neither satisfies nor forwards the overall narrative.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
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  3. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    It's not just a female vs male thing; you even highlighted the other part: So. Kylo murders Han, only doesn't murder Luke and Leia due to circumstance, but lives?

    That Rey is the first female Jedi protagonist is a big deal: she was meant to be to little girls what Luke Skywalker, in his days, was to little boys. Killing her off for the sake of saving the villain just feels like a middle finger, intentional or not, to those little girls who were excited to see that the new hero was female, and became invested in Rey's story. Instead of getting to see Rey get a happy ending and be able to look forward to her future adventures, those girls would instead be treated to their new hero dying while the villain - another boy character - lives to become a hero.

    It also wouldn't be in service to the story, either. At least, it wouldn't be in service to Rey's story and it should be since she is the main protagonist.

    Here's the thing about the Original Trilogy and Darth Vader's part as well as his redemption: Darth Vader is there to support Luke's story. Luke is not sacrificed so that Darth Vader and his story can continue. Darth Vader dies so that Luke can live because it is Luke's story.

    By the end of the Sequel Trilogy, Rey has received closure about her parent's abandonment, she has a found family and she has become a Jedi.

    Regardless of how you feel about the execution or certain elements of the story, it does serve as a logical ending that contrast the beginning of her story where she is alone and friendless with an unfulfilling life because she is weighed down by her abandonment issues.

    If Rey dies, however, she never gets to live a life unencumbered by her past, she never gets to see where her new sense of purpose as a Jedi leads and most importantly, she loses the family that she has finally found.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  4. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I guess it really comes down to what is most important to an individual when watching a movie: Is the story and one's enjoyment of how it plays out the most important? Or is it the gender of the main character that is the most important?

    I personally don't care which gender the main character is-I'd enjoy a well written character either way. But when I watch a film, the story and the development of the characters come first-not the gender. I fully acknowledge others may feel differently, and I totally respect that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
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  5. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    Rey's death would not be in service to either one of those things.

    It seems like you are trying to boil my post down to just being about gender, even though the second half of my post is exclusively about how Rey's death wouldn't be in service to the story and I don't treat her gender as relevant in that part.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  6. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Again, an opinion.


    One that I disagree with, but respect.
     
  7. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    @ScreamingWoman2019
    I get what you are saying, but I must ask: What is behind Luke's reasoning for believing Anakin could be "saved" in ROTJ. Let's examine...

    -Biological connection. As was stated, Leia had this too and it didn't matter. Surely, this connection alone isn't the thing that caused Luke to want to save Anakin/Vader. Fact is, Luke has no connection/relationship to his biological father. Luke was raised by his Aunt and Uncle and they were, essentially, his parents. They raised him and loved him. No?

    -Luke's childhood image of his father. Did this really play into Luke's ROTJ motivation to save his dad? Consider...

    In ANH, we learn that Luke grew up thinking his dad was some regular/nondescript guy that had the, seemingly mundane, job of being a navigator on a spice freighter. Surely, this isn't what inspired Luke to fight for/bring back/preserve in ROTJ when trying to "save" Anakin.

    Later, Obi-Wan tells Luke a half truth about who Anakin really was. Turns out Uncle Owen lied about Luke's father and way undersold who/what Anakin was. Surely, Luke is/was inspired by this heroic Jedi/pilot/good friend of Obi-Wan version of his father....to a point.

    Crushingly, in Empire Strikes Back, Luke learns that this heroic version/image of his father was also a big lie. From a certain point of view. So, it would seem that this idealized/heroic version of Anakin isn't exactly what inspires Luke to save Anakin.

    Turns out, Obi-Wan's ANH version wasn't a true representation/full picture of Anakin. In fact, Obi-Wan takes great care to let Luke know that this version of Anakin was not in existence anymore. Yet, Luke persists with this thinking.

    As ROTJ unfolds, Luke continues in his quest with the goal to save the monster that Luke had only known as enemy combatant. Luke's relationship with his father was one of warfare, torture, maiming, destruction, psychological torment, and the victimization of Luke's friends. Luke knows Vader is not the idealized good Jedi/pilot/hero that Obi-Wan described. Yet, he persists in trying to save him. Why?

    It's simple:

    Luke Skywalker senses Vader's goodness through "The Force". This is mentioned several times in ROTJ. I'll say it again, Luke Skywalker only thinks that Anakin Skywalker still resides deep within Vader because he can sense it through The Force. Without this aspect, Luke would have no reason whatsoever to think Vader/Anakin could be redeemed. Without The Force, Luke would likely continue view Vader as the monster everyone else (including Vader himself) does.
    It is not about biological connection, it is not about how Luke imagined his father as a child, it's not about the "certain point of view" of Anakin that Obi-Wan bestowed upon Luke. Luke Skywalker's quest to redeem Darth Vader's soul is because of "The Force."
     
  8. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Lori Lightfoot of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, as I said, I’m not changing my mind. I know what I saw in the 70s and 80s. Luke reached out to his father due to the biological connection.
     
  9. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Different generations different interprations I suppose. [:D]
     
  10. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    [​IMG]

    Vader being his father IS important to Luke. It's why he says he can't kill him.
     
  11. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Like I said earlier. Vader killed Biggs right in front of Luke.

    That didn’t stop Luke.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Lori Lightfoot of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Biggs wasn’t Vader’s father.

    Kylo killed his own father in front of Rey. His father who was reaching out to him and trying to bring him home. Also not what Biggs was doing.
     
  13. godisawesome

    godisawesome Retired Mod of the Sequel Campaign star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    The thing is the more we follow this, the more we just need to have Adam Driver just not playing Kylo Ren, but some entirely different character in an entirely different story.

    For me, beyond the simple aspect of wanting the Skywalkers to exit the ST in a more complete fashion, it has to be considered how poor and worthless of a human being Ben Solo is when he’s just a repackaged Anakin/Darth Vader.

    I find Ben unworthy of the Skywalker legacy in every way, even given he stains Vader left on it.
    - from enacting a plan that did not focus on redeeming Vader or even expecting mercy and cooperation from him, and in fact was predicated on the premise that Vader could be drawn away from the strike team, and then fatally nailed down where the Emperor was where all of them would die together.

    Again, the great problem with the conundrum in the comparison is that Luke both had many more reasons to have compassion and mercy towards Vader, yet also had a plan of action that just wasn’t anyway near as dumb or reliant on that compassion and mercy.

    In other words... the comparison doesn’t really exist.

    It’s a contrast instead.

    And not a very good one.
     
  14. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    It is important, and it may the reason Luke cannot kill him. Yet, it's not the reason Luke tries to redeem Anakin.
     
  15. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    I mean at that point then the Sequel Trilogy just won't work for certain people and that's okay and those people can just move on and enjoy other things in Star Wars...and that's okay. Better then always trying to constantly criticize the ST all the time.

    So long as some people gain something from the Sequel Trilogy that's all that matters. Just let the people who enjoy it, enjoy it I guess.

    If people don't like it there are plenty of other Star Wars things that exist.

    We have what we have and there's no changing it now. It's canon, and it's what people are gonna work for moving forward...And backward....and sideways....and forways...and all the other ways Star Wars goes

    In twenty years for new generations it will just be Star Wars and no one will question it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It's both.

    But the biological connection is most important.

    They practically beat us over the head with Luke's interest in his father in all three OT movies.
    He is more inclined to act on the feeling there is good in Vader because he still wants to see Vader deep down as that man he once imagined him as. If he wasn't his father he wouldn't likely even try.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  17. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Exactly. If he wasn't his father, he would have no internal issue about Vader. There would be no reason to care about Anakin for Luke. He would just be like the Emperor.
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I don't know if I'd go that far. There was no good in The Emperor.

    But I mostly agree.
     
  19. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    As someone who would want to write, to me, in the last movie, I think making her a Skywalker would be inconsistent and not serve much dramatic potential, with not really much of a way to directly connect her, with those involved, to that family. And I think the others doesn't serve much dramatic potential in the last movie, for the others, as well. Palpatine, him being the villain in the last movie, has a thing there.

    Abrams' not the one who killed off the Luke character. Leia wasn't an available character to use much of in the last movie, as is.
     
  20. Starith

    Starith Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2020
    They could've killed off Kylo, but brought back Luke. Then there could've been the possibility of the Skywalker bloodline continuing, and you could even keep the idea of Rey being an adopted Skywalker.
     
  21. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    If Vader wasn’t his father, then Luke has no reason to spare him. ROTJ barely gets away with Luke saving him because of the family connection. Take that out and Luke redeems him? Like killing Han in ROTJ, no one would have cared about that movie ten minutes after it ended.

    If Kylo isn’t Han and Leia’s child, there’s no narrative reason for Rey to spare him. She already has no reason beyond “it’s a Star Wars movie.” It’s the equivalent of Han saying there’s always a way to blow these things up, which is a perfect expression of how lazy and insulting the ST is.
     
  22. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    How cool would it have been if Kylo Ren went to kill the Emperor but in kylo telling Rey she is Palpatines daughter that she chooses to save and redeem palpatine.
     
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Can't tell if serious?

    Eta - Honestly couldn't tell if you are pointing out an irony, or you just thought it would be cool to see? :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  24. DarthKegs

    DarthKegs Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 21, 2019
    TRoS could have saved itself by doing something extraordinary like having our 'heroes' fail and be killed off with Palpatine coming out victorious. It would have made for an unexpected but mouth watering ending.
    I didn't mind Kylo Ren being killed off as despite Adam Driver being a fantastic actor I always felt his character was like a poundland Darth Vader.
    But no, they went down the very predictable route of having the good guys win.
     
  25. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    That's fine for people who are more invested in the animated series, spin offs and stuff like Legends and KOTOR.
    Unfortunately for me, the films are the things I'm mostly interested in. And the Skywalkers and Solos will ALWAYS be the heart and soul of Star Wars.
    TROS was a film made for haters. Kylo haters, Rose haters, Rian Johnson haters. And this is how they chose to end a forty two year old saga......for haters.

    I'm middle aged now, twenty years from now I might not be here. So for me this is the end of Star Wars.
    I just wish they'd made it a happier ending. Some like it, especially those who loathe and detest Kylo Ren, but I see it as a horribly depressing, disappointing finale. And as a woman, I'm genuinely saddened they've given us such a dull heroine.
    Last year personally was a **** year for me, and I honestly thought TROS would be an uplifting experience. SW always was for me. Instead I walked out of the cinema feeling suicidal. My greatest source of escapism has been forever destroyed.
    I just regret now defending this trilogy to its haters. The makers have spat in my face metaphorically, and the faces of everyone who stood up for them.....to appease the haters.
    It's a weird world. Not a very fair one.
     
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