ST What does the ST add to the Saga? What is its story purpose?

I wish we got to see what Lucas would have done it may not have been perfect but at least he would have actually tried to create something that added to the Star Wars universe.

 

Even Amelia was better IMO. But the fourth and fifth movie had some awful, awful villains. I even forgot their names. They would be a fitting analogy for me.

 

Well those over villains had interesting plans (the plan in 4 is interesting even if nothing else about it is.)

I forget the name of the bad guy in 5 (played by edmure tully from Game of Thrones), but even he DID stuff. Plus he got some wins and had a good fight.

What did Snoke do? Just die, just like Amelia.

 

Well Snoke was a kinda main bad guy and she was just a side character with minimal screentime. So I think he was way worse.

 

True, but they did have about the same affect on the plot.

 

I’m pretty sure we’ll get to see them, or a variation of them, someday. I think Disney lost sight of what George Lucas actually brought to SW re. concepts, characters and stories etc. (I.e. the fundamental elements) and in doing so, kind of got burnt in the hubris of their distancing themselves from the creator. If they have any sense, they’ll go back to Lucas for ideas.

 

I think that even more so than I am a Star Wars fan, I am a George Lucas fan, and I find everything baked into the ideas of his for the ST that we've seen to be fascinating. I'd be heartbroken if we, at the very least, don't get some massive hardcover coffee table book or something containing the treatments, artwork, and any other existing material for Lucas' Sequel Trilogy (and while we're at it, maybe Star Wars: Underworld too?). His ST would have been weirder and more isoteric than what we got for sure, and by the sound of it, would have been incredibly up my alley.

As it stands, I don't like the world of the Sequel Trilogy much at all. The political landscape is reductive, and the Resistance vs First Order conflict is boring; please please please, Star Wars, I beg of you to move on from X-Wings and TIE Fighters outside of the OT era.

Given the distaste I have of so many of the overarching ST themes, I do find it to be a pretty significant miracle in and of itself that I happen to find myself liking The Last Jedi as an individual film as much as I do. In a sense it almost transcends what bookends it to me. I think that's why the idea of a trilogy orchestrated by Rian Johnson through and through intrigues me so much. I want to see what he'd do in this galaxy, without the confines of riffing on a story that someone else had already begun. I'd love to see him lean a bit more into the pulpier elements of Lucas' style a bit more if he does get his trilogy, however. While I find Abrams' movies to be excruciatingly modern in their construction, I think Johnson really nailed the mythological elements (without quite hitting the pulp), in the same way that The Mandalorian hits the pulp but not so much the myth.

 

I think if the theme of community was focused on a little more in TROS, the ST’s value to the saga as a story about the value and power of legend would have been clearer. That is definitely a unique aspect of the ST that wasn’t present in the other trilogies. The value of every day people instead of just trained fighters and descendants of powerful heroes. I think part of it was the rush to get Ep 9 redrafted and made, but everything involving Lando basically touched on this function of the movie to the overall story: His referenced former teaming with Luke, whom TLJ established as a renewed legend across the galaxy, his response to how the OT heroes succeeded, and his directing the core systems community to join the fight. I think if those three Lando elements had a chance to further develop, the unique function of the ST in the saga would have been stronger and clearer.


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I agree as this theme makes alot of sense. I think they could have framed the ST and OT as, 'We won the battle in the OT, but we won the War in the ST." Meaning that they took down the Empire after ROTJ, but they didn't win the hearts and minds of the galaxy (since the rebellion was a small band of rebels). The ST could have been more about the galaxy coming together (including Finn and the Stormtroopers revolting), so there would be no remnants of the First/Final Order after TROS like there were after ROTJ.

Also, you would have to use the original ROTJ ending where it is just a celebration on Endor, and not the whole galaxy. It would give it more context that they won the battle in ROTJ, but not the war.

 

I think that could have been great. Although I don't really see that present in the current ST as a purposeful focus. Maybe by accident at times, but not on purpose.

• Rey - Nobody scavenger, who's strong in the Force. = Check. But they teased her being connected to the Solo/Skywalkers/Kenobi's all along, until surprise, she's a Palpatine.
• Finn - Former storm trooper turned Rebel hero = Check. Could have really been the hear of the trilogy, inspiring others to rise up against the FO, deal with child slavery (a thing since TPM days) and maybe even be a Jedi. Instead they really didn't do anything with him at all, save for some comic relief, and following Rey around screaming her name.
• Poe - I really don't know anything about Poe's on screen background. He's a hot shot pilot, former criminal perhaps, looking to lead or....something. I don't think Poe was ever really developed. The character got by, by the grace of the actor's charm, and the bromance with Finn. I guess he's a commoner.
• Rose - nobody too, who's world got attacked. TBH, she's just as everyday commoner as Han Solo is.

I think if Luke considered all his students to be his children, like they're all just a bunch of nobodies from around the galaxy, and he set out to find the nobodies and rebuild his new Order under this principle, and this was paired up against a Ben Solo, who's privileged, entitled, essentially a prince and the least nobody in the ST, who thinks the power of the Force, the Jedi, all belongs in the family. And some of them survived the academy destruction. This theme of community and commoners and winning the hearts of minds of the galaxy ... could have worked.

 

The ST has many issues, IMO, one of those being the reductive way they treat the OT and PT. Framing the Skywalker Saga as the OT being a 'battle', whilst the ST was a 'war', only underlines that issue further. Besides, everything in the ST (again in my opinion), feels more like a skirmish than a galactic war, especially when compared to what we've seen in the PT/OT.
I agree about the stormtroopers coming together... that could have been an opportunity to do something new, whilst having a foot in the past... and would have been great IMO.

 

No doubt that the ST could have developed the macro story better (the fact that there are no politics really hurts the story now). But when ROTJ leaves off (1983 edition). There is just a small celebration on Endor (not the galaxy-wide celebration shown in the SE). In that context, the OT was very direct in it's storytelling compared to the PT where it felt like a galaxy at War. So the ST could have seized on that theme of how the Republic rebuilt, but it never won the hearts and minds of the galaxy.

The interesting thing about the PT/OT is that the personal stories aren't well known among the galaxy. How many people knew Anakin was Vader? How many people knew that Palpatine was this Sith Lord? How many people really knew what happened on DS2 with Luke, The Emperor and Vader? You had all these huge historical events to the movie goer like us, but the general public in a GFFA probably didn't know about other than hearing about the legend of Luke Skywalker, or legend of Darth Vader.

The ST could have played with that angle that everyone in the galaxy was involved this time (instead of shoehorning this plot point at the end of TROS when Lando goes to rally the galaxy in 15 minutes). Finn rallying the Stormtroopers against the First Order, Leia rallying the new republic Senators, and Rey rallying a new generation of Jedi's. The ST could have been such a big macro story yet they decided to make it smaller than the OT, where everything happens yet nobody really knows about it, except the myths they hear.

 

I know we all have our issues with the ST and I've been thinking a lot on how to create a ST that manages to satisfy older, veteran fans with those of the new. I feel that making some of these changes will satisfy most fans, especially the one's who have been disappointed the most:

1) Make Rey a Skywalker or Solo, preferably a Skywalker from the jump, no mystery box BS, no trying to create a "I am your father" level reveal, just simply make her related to one of the OT3, once you do this, there is no scenario where there are divides within the fandom on who Rey should be, you don't risk disappointing a "Rey Skywalker" fanbase over a "Rey Nobody" fanbase.

2) Ben solo is Han and Leia's kid who is a cool, snarky, charming, handsome, dashing whatever prodigious Jedi. He has a strong and healthy relationship with Han, Leia, Luke, and his cousin/sister, Rey. They all love him and he loves them. No one is disappointed in this scenario. It's a win-win for everyone involved OT fans, ST fans, Ben Solo fans, Rey fans, whomever. Although Reylo fans would be disappointed- oh wait no they wouldn't be because Reylo wouldn't even exist in this scenario

3) Snoke doesn't exist in any way, shape, or form. Snoke is basically a character who one points at to show how little originality and imagination reside in the mind of Jeffrey Jacob Abrams. Instead replace Snoke with a new villain, preferably one that has nothing to do with the force. Have the ST story be the OT and their two progeny Ben Solo and Rey Skywalker rallying together to fight this new villain.

4) Now for the most wasted character in the ST, Yeah,I Know most of the characters are wasted lol, but you know who this is. It's FINN. I've thought a lot about what to do with Finn's character in this scenario. I feel the best thing for him is that he gets a trilogy where he is the main character, not second fiddle to Rey or a relegated character in shadow of the Skywalker drama. He deserves a trilogy where his character is explored in depth and and done justice.

What do you guys think?

 

Totally agree... I would have been totally up for a story that gave a modicum of focus as to why it was difficult for the New Republic to maintain 'peace and justice' in a galaxy, where Republic borders were being threatened by a new 'menace', and where the political system was wary of a 'Skywalker'. Or why Luke found it difficult to establish a functioning New Jedi Order, that was unable to grow a 'span of control' over a circa 30 year period etc. Surely there must have been the opportunity to train and develop students in a 30 year period to that of 'Jedi Knight'? And I certainly would have been invested in a story that focused on Finn leading a stormtrooper revolt against their masters.

 

There is one plotline from the novel 'Bloodline' that would have been interesting for the overall plot of the ST. Leia gets exposed in the Senate as Darth Vader's daughter after 30 years, and all hell breaks loose. Think about it, nobody ever knew who Darth Vader really was except a handful of people in the galaxy. You could have made Leia the Supreme Chancellor, Han the head of the Republic Army, and Luke running the Jedi Academy, and Luke/Leia are exposed as Vader's kids? That would be like Hitler's unknown kids running West Germany in the 1960's-70's and are finally exposed 30 years after WW2.

You could have had a Snoke-like villain behind the scenes who was behind the ousting of Luke/Leia and that could set up the whole battle as everyone takes sides: Pro-Skywalker or Anti-Skywalker? You can then incorporate Han/Leia's and Luke/Wife's kids into the story to save the family name, and they can carry the torch for Episode 10,11,12. It still boggles that Disney decided to kill the Skywalker name after Episode 9.

 

My hope is that we get a Filoni-produced animated series with Luke, Grogu, young Ben, etc, dealing with all this and more. So much rich story potential there.

 

Exactly that. I think that's a much more emotionally charged and engaging story... even if just used as a backdrop to the story going on in the foreground i.e. as you say, it's the OT3 being dislodged from the political system that allows the new antagonist to attack/take control etc.

 

I think it's astounding (or perhaps just sloppy writing) that no one in the Resistance cares (or even knows) that Kylo is Leia's son. The story just totally glosses over this major connection. In the OT, everyone thinks Anakin is dead. I don't even think Tarkin knows the truth.

But if the whole Vader thing got exposed afterwards, and it blew up, and it ruined Leia's standing in the NR ... and then she turns around and hides the fact that Vader 2.0 is her OWN son and then creates a Resistance to fight him, and has been fighting him for like 6 years. How is that not mentioned even once in the story? WTF!

Even if the Vader is Anakin Skywalker, and Leia's dad doesn't get exposed, HOW does no one in the story care that Kylo is Leia's son. What did Han and Leia tell the galaxy happened to Ben Solo? Has anyone ever asked? Hux seems to know perfectly well who Kylo is, and he hates him for obvious reasons...why doesn't Hux leak this information to the galaxy?

Does Poe know that the dude who tortured him for the information that Leia sent him to retrieve ... is her own son? If he doesn't know, why is it okay for Leia to hide this from him? It's not like Leia thinks her son is dead, so there's no reason to tell anyone...she's literally sending Han and Rey to go save him. lol

Does Finn know that the dude leading the FO, the side he defected from, and is running away from, and had a lightsaber battle where he had his spine split in half and ended up in a coma from, is actually Leia's son?

However, if the Resistance and the NR knows that Kylo is really their son, why don't they NR trust Leia that the FO is a real problem? Why does anyone let her lead the Resistance in the first place? Talk about major conflict of interest. No wonder the Resistance hasn't successfully defeated the FO? Leia doesn't want to hurt her own son.

It's just something the writers didn't even think through. They didn't care because they were copying the OT. And the OT hides Vader's identity...so that happens here too. But it no longer makes any sense.

 

The ST in a nutshell.

 

That's a good point about Leia and Kylo. I don't remember Leia not trying to stop Kylo; but if this gives her pause she should certainly step down as she would not be fit to lead. Ugh thank you ST.

 

Re: Kylo and Leia.

I don't think that's a very difficult question to answer. The movies seem to assume that no one knows who is under that mask. To which I follow up question would naturally be, "Why wouldn't anyone know/who wouldn't know?" and I find that a pretty easy question to answer as well.

That everyone SHOULD know is what I would want to focus on because that's the underlying assumption here. Why should people know? It's a big galaxy, and Leia doesn't talk about her familial issues with anyone. It's a question that I think those that take issue with this should answer before I could try to answer "Why/How wouldn't anyone know/make that connection?"

Is it predicated on the notion that WE, the AUDIENCE, knows and therefore the characters in the story also should know?

 

Your use of caps convinced me. Thank you.

 

She’s been fighting the FO for 6 years. Has definitive proof that the FO is a real threat since her force trained son is number 2 in the order. Proof that might convince a NR that isn’t taking it seriously, that they are dangerous. And she keeps it to herself, which results in their destruction, because she doesn’t want what happened when the galaxy learned that her father was Vader.

And then when her son helps destroy the NR and commits genocide, she sends her husband to save Kylo during the same mission that she sends everyone else on to eradicate him and the FO. When the Resistance is hiding in the base on Crait, and are being destroyed by this madman, none of them even think of asking Leia to maybe try talking to her son. Or when Luke appears to battle Kylo, none of them realize that Kylo is his nephew.

So I’d say that’s a major conflict of interest and Leia is playing both sides by not telling anyone Kylo is her son. She’d literally putting the safety of her evil son over the lives of everyone in the galaxy.

And the writers do not care one single bit.

 

the point is Leia should not keep that a secret. It's a conflict of interest. It is immoral not to reveal that. If the Resistance are cool with that, then great. She could step down and still be a soldier if they wanted her to do that.

 

At the beginning of TLJ, isn't Poe Dameron making fun of Kylo being Leia's son?

So ist that subject still a secret?