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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST What does the ST add to the Saga? What is its story purpose?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Jun 24, 2019.

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  1. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Like any other major franchise-based Hollywood blockbuster nowadays, the out-of-universe origins for the ST are both banal ($$$) and ambitious fanboyism (I mean, I don’t think we can deny that a lot of LFL and co. have been dreaming about this for decades.)

    Now, in terms of the creative spark being based off something that “needed” to be addressed or not, I *do* think that LFL looked for what they hoped would be a safe bet, and unknowingly made one that came with a bit more risks than they perceived, and have maybe boxed themselves into a situation where the Sequel Trilogy may be defined more by “Sequel-itis” and redundancy due to some of their choices.

    Having an Empire-based bad guy start another Galactic War, fronted by another Skywalker gone bad, is not an inherently limiting idea... but it is derivative, and has vulnerabilities towards being repetitive and ultimately meaningless, especially the more deliberately you lean in towards repetition of your own will.

    Stuff like Starkiller Base just being a bigger Death Star and then trying to establish the heroic forces as overwhelmed underdogs? The exact kind of thing that makes you story more repetitive. TROS may have some hope here, but I feel like TFA and TLJ exacerbated each others’ flaws in the lore department, and have left the central “secular” conflict somewhat toothless.

    I’ll also say that, given the revelations from TLJ, I believe a severe mistake was made regarding the “Skywalker Soap Opera” when they decided to resurrect it. When they made Kylo Ren Ben Solo, they *did* break apart the extremely satisfying and bittersweet but hopeful ending given to the family by ROTJ. That wasn’t necessarily a bad move... but I’d argue it clearly became a bad move once they decided to make him the only generation 3 Skywalker. That kind of reinterprets the Skywalker story as almost exclusively a tragedy of monsters, only briefly interrupted with some heroes before returning to form with another wretch, this one less sympathetic than the first.

    If Kylo had a good Skywalker counterpart, whether in Rey, or even in something as humble as a non-force-sensitive sibling or cousin, than the family legacy could have been made into a battle between its two halves. Without, it’s just kind of a bitter “Cerebus Retcon” taking a good ending and making it painful, but worse, kind of pointless. And by the by, if the idea was to “move past the Skywalkers,” then Kylo simply shouldn’t exist; have the Skywalker story effectively end with ROTJ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  2. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Was a Sequel Trilogy necessary? Of course!

    Was a Reboot Trilogy necessary? Of course not!

    Was a pseudo-intellectual deconstruction project necessary? Nope!

    The problem with deciding whether the ST was necessary or not, is that it's not really a unified project with the OT/PT, and it's not even a cohesive project unto itself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  3. Knight of Jedi Ren Sith

    Knight of Jedi Ren Sith Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2018
    Well-timed thread. My interest for this trilogy is so low at this point -- unlike the PT and OT after two films -- that I've been reflecting more and more on this wasted opportunity.

    So yes, there could have been a need here, a real story to tell that complemented the previous trilogies, but the writers have been unable, or unwilling, to mine the larger themes that needed to be explored more.

    I've mentioned this before in other threads, as have many others, but rebuilding democracy in a diverse galaxy where many worlds and beings have fundamentally different values was one idea that would have been natural and constructive to explore. If the PT showed how powerful corporate entities could corrupt democracy from the inside, then the natural form for the ST would have been to explore how radically different ideologies block the building of a strong democracy, and also, how that weakness can be exploited by anti-democratic forces.

    And within this democratically themed framework, the struggles of the new Jedi could complement the struggles of a new republic. All of this could have been super interesting and dramatic and it could have deepened our knowledge of the Force and the galaxy.

    Instead we have a lot of vague mysteries, compulsive subversion, and the shallow exploitation of iconic imagery.

    I don't see how one film can patch up the massive black hole of story called the ST. Especially not with JJ at the helm: we should be happy to have a fun adventure movie, but nothing more. And definitely nothing that makes the ST feel necessary.

    Nevertheless, an ST could have been necessary if some serious storytellers had been behind it.

    Lucas, for all his faults, at least gave depth to whatever was on the screen. And that made his schlock interesting schlock. This is just schlock. The Marvel films have more depth, which, as a comic book fan, doesn't surprise me, but SW should easily be able to do the same.

    The blame goes to KK and everyone else responsible for green lighting a shallow story.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  4. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    because the fans have been demanding the ST since the end of ROTJ.

    Can you think of another franchise that has had its fans scream louder then SW fans for more movies?

    Sure Disney's prime motive was to make money but they wouldn't be able to do that if there weren't fans wanting it.

    and out of everything the ST is the safest bet for Disney to make. Had they made a compltely original trilogy based 1000 of years in the past or future it wouldn't have done as well for the first Disney Star Wars movies.

    i actually have to disagree with that. remember where Star Wars fandom was after Disney bought Star Wars. the PT love hadn't existed yet people were still angry at the PT we can see this with things like RLM reviews and The People Vs George Lucas.

    Disney had to do a soft reboot of ANH using majority of practiicle effects to show fans they could make Star Wars.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  5. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    If they had to do a soft reboot to show fans what they can do then I am wondering about the logic and the necessity of the slam dunk afterwards. Would have been good to have an overall idea of the ST story though. That would have shown as well that they have an idea about how to do SW.
     
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  6. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @godisawesome, I think you make a lot of great points in your posts, but something that really jumped out at me was the idea of giving Kylo a cousin or sibling who wasn't Force-sensitive. I've never seen anyone suggest that before, but I think it would have provided a fascinating foil to Kylo and also would have the added interest of seeing how a Solo or Skywalker kid dealt with not being Force-sensitive while having so many family members who were strong in the Force. A character like that would have been really interesting to see the Sequel Trilogy develop, in my opinion.
     
  7. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    I think this mis-remembers the context of 2015. The “inevitable reboot” narrative didn’t really emerge until *after* TFA hit theaters and fans needed to rationalize what they’d seen and interpret critical reception. They decided that the reason general audiences enjoyed TFA was because JJ was “playing it safe” and making SW accessible for non-fans who had only seen one or two OT films.

    But I think you’re correct that JJ and LFL were haunted by the PT specter. Actually, they were so intimidated by the prospect of integrating the PT and OT that they decided to just pretend the PT never existed at all, and that SW progresses as a cyclical time loop. Were they influenced by RLM and the Youtube commentariate? Probably, but that speaks less to their understanding of the fandom and more to their commercial perspective. They cared more about how they would sell SW than what kind of story they wanted to tell, and decided it would be easier to just repackage the most recognizable iconography rather than make something new. This problem wasn’t apparent at first because it was assumed there was a bigger plan for the mystery boxes and cliff hangers, but now we know there was no plan. Snoke, the FO, the Knights of Ren, Rey’s lineage, Luke’s exile, they were winging it all.

    The ST isn’t really a continuation of the saga, it’s a commercial experiment.
     
  8. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @Glitterstimm, I think you do a good job highlight what seem to be the overarching conceptual and developmental errors in the construction of the Sequel Trilogy to date. The Sequel Trilogy thus far hasn't been a continuation of the Original Trilogy but rather a rehash of it with TFA bearing many similarities in plot to ANH, TLJ doing the same with ESB, and almost everything we see about the First Order in the movies being directly borrowed from the Empire. I also agree that thus far there hasn't been a real link to establish that sense of connection between the Sequel Trilogy and the other two trilogies in the saga. Hopefully Rise of Skywalker can address these issues and make the Sequel Trilogy a more meaningful part of the Star Wars saga for many fans who are craving that meaning in the Sequel Trilogy.
     
  9. Knight of Jedi Ren Sith

    Knight of Jedi Ren Sith Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2018
    I doubt the Rise of Skywalker connects the ST meaningfully to what's come before, not in a way hardcore PT or OT or EU fans will be blown away by.

    And the main reason for this is the corporate attitude that dominates the new LFL SW approach -- "make the films for the general audience."

    That attitude has even been adopted as the rhetoric of ST supporters. It's surprising that SW fans would ever support such an approach; it shows that people have forgotten that Lucas felt a great degree of freedom to create his vision, and that was a big part of SW success and charm.

    Making films for a general audience may seem reasonable from a practical standpoint, if your concern is mainly box office numbers. However, if your main concern is story, then that approach will result in what we've seen: overly simplified and bare of lore.

    Ironically, it's this last consequence of "success" that makes the ST narrative unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  10. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    it's not exactly an experiment as it's a proven formula. Really the PT was the experimant as Lucas was more concerned with pushing the technology then telling a cohesive story

    From a story perspective intigrating the PT woulnd't make sense. How do you intigrate the movies that took place 70+ years ago? What effect would they have on the ST?

    yeah... GL never did that... remind me why he decided to create Ewoks instead of using Wookies as oriignally intended?


    As big of a coroprtation as Disney is and how much they will merchandise and milk a properity it pales in comparision to what Lucas has done over the years with Star Wars. The PT is easily the most merchendised movies of all time. For gods sake they had Jar Jar binks lolipops

    [​IMG]

    #neverforget
     
  11. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @Vicarious Fan , I have to respectfully disagree with your idea that in the Prequels Lucas was more concerned with pushing technology than telling a cohesive story. Yes, Lucas enjoyed experimenting with new special effects and technologies in the Prequels, but the Prequels very much told a cohesive story both within themselves and within the overarching saga, which at that time included only the Originals and the Prequels.

    Within themselves, the Prequels are the story of the rise and fall of a tragic hero, Anakin Skywalker. They are basically Greek tragedy updated for a modern audience and put in a space fantasy similar to how the Originals were conceived as a retelling of a traditional hero's journey with Luke Skywalker as the hero. Along with the Originals, the Prequels also formed a coherent storyline in that you could follow the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker and his journey as a character tied the Prequels together with the Originals. Certainly there are some details that don't mesh together perfectly between the Originals and the Prequels (such as Leia seeming to remember her birth mother) but big picture there is a coherent story we can follow. There isn't that same sort of big picture cohesive story for us to follow when it comes to what is tying the Prequels, Originals, and Sequels together. I think that is a major conceptual and developmental error in the Sequel Trilogy to date.

    I'd also be more sympathetic to the argument that the Prequels can't be tied into the Sequels in any way if TLJ in particular didn't seem to go out of its way to insult the Prequel Jedi with Luke's rants that were full of the typical distortions that Prequel fans have been listening to for years from people who hated the Prequels and didn't understand or agree with the philosophies of the Prequel Jedi. If the Prequels can't be tied into the Sequels in any meaningful way (which I would argue would be a sign that the Sequels shouldn't be made as they can't tell a coherent story within the framework of the rest of the saga) then there shouldn't be the opportunity to work in some insults against the Prequel Jedi into the script of TLJ to serve as a slap on the face to fans of the Prequel Trilogy.

    I do agree that the Prequels (particularly TPM) were marketed extensively especially toward children, but that has actually produced a generation of millennials like myself who are attached to the Prequels and enjoy it. TLJ actually has bad timing in the sense that it insults the Prequels around the time that the millennials who grew up with the Prequels as the Star Wars of their generation were really coming into their own in terms of purchasing power. Speaking as a millennial, I'd much rather spend money on stuff set in the Prequel era than stuff set in the Sequel era. Perhaps we will see a similar wave of Sequel fans come of age years down the line, but Star Wars merchandise sales aren't actually that great unlike in the Prequel era. Give me novels like Queen's Shadow and Master and Apprentice set in the Prequel era over a movie like TLJ or TFA any day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  12. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    i mean... we know that he was as we have seen him in the writing process. He started working on the effects before he ever began writing the script. I strogly advice you watch all the behind the scenes and making of features for TPM they are very insitful.


    did they though?

    if you find that insulting you missed the entire point. Luke isn't the good guy in those scenes. Luke is representing the people who hate the prequels and showing their arguments. Rey is representing the fans that still know that while flawed the Jedi code and philosphies are right and she saves the Jedi texts.

    that scene is mocking the post modern youtubers who come up with videos like "The Jedi are really evil and the Sith are good" or "Batman is the real villain"

    it's literally saying that the PT are right


    yeah... that's what Disney is doing as well hence why they built a theme park land dedicated to the ST. When this generation grows up the ST will be loved just as much as the PT. That's how nostalgia works Disney just has a bigger budget then Lucas did and they are avoiding a lot of the cheap crap Lucas pushed.

    again it absolutely doesn't do that.

    toy sales are down for all IPs including Marvel. Has nothing to do with the fandom or impact but a change in the time and techology

    Any money they have lost in retail sales they have gained back in mobile game micro transactions. My Nieces and Nephews for example never buy action figures but both have every Star Wars mobile games.
     
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  13. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @Vicarious Fan, what matters to me is the end product, not the order in which a project was begun. The end product of the Prequels is coherent within themselves as well as within the overall arching saga, whereas the Sequels lack cohesion both within themselves and within the overarching saga. I care about the end product rather than about whether a script was begun before special effects were conceived.

    My point is that if there was the opportunity for Luke to go on a diatribe against the Prequel Jedi, there was definitely the opportunity to make the Sequels a coherent story that fits in with both the Prequels and the Originals. There is still time to do that with Rise of Skywalker, but if that doesn't happen, the Sequel Trilogy becomes very skippable when I rewatch the Star Wars saga as a whole, and I no longer have any incentive to purchase anything set during the Sequel era, being as it is my least favorite time period.

    I have no issue with Disney creating a theme park about Star Wars or marketing Star Wars however they want. Hopefully for them it produces a generation of loyal fans like the Prequels did. Time will tell on that score.
     
  14. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    It is really important that this thread does not turn into a Prequels vs Sequels debate.
     
  15. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    but it's not.... one of the biggest flaws of the PT is having Padme die in childbirth. This one change completely ruins one of the most important scenes between Luke and Leia in ROTJ. The scene where Luke asks Leia about her mother her real mother. This is Luke trying to conect to his mother and his sister at the time.

    Since Leia now hasn't grown up with her mother that scene is completely meaningless.

    This is just one of many things the PT did that are not choherant with the overal saga.
    and again the story does fit with in those movies. Luke is wrong in attacking the Jedi order that's the point. I'm not sure how else I can explain to you that it is not an attack on the PT or its fans.

    and that is all I will say about the PT
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  16. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @Vicarious Fan, my point as it pertains to the Sequel Trilogy is that I think it needs to be coherent with the whole saga (Prequels and Originals) in order to succeed as part of the saga. I feel it has not been coherent with the whole saga or even within itself thus far. I would like to see that change with Rise of Skywalker.
     
  17. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Quite seriously, if they're not already doing so, you should tip the parents off about this so they can keep an eye on the spending. Those costs can really rack up and microtransactions don't tend to be that micro! (There's a reputational risk for SW in this area too.)
     
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  18. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    perhaps you can explain how you feel it isn't coherent with the whole Saga. I feel that it is so far.
     
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  19. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @Vicarious Fan, the best way I can describe it is before the Sequels were released I could sit down and watch the saga of six Star Wars movies, and say to myself at the beginning that I was following Anakin Skywalker's journey from his boyhood to his death: his rise, his fall, and his redemption. With the Sequels, I no longer feel as if there is that unifying thread of a character or even a single goal running through the saga as a whole. Now Rise of Skywalker could change that for me. For example, if Rey turns out to be a Skywalker/Solo, to me, the saga becomes about following the Skywalker family through the generations, or if Rey brings balance to the Force in some way (my preferred theory) then I could see the overall saga becoming about bringing balance to the Force, which to me would be very cool.

    If you feel that there is that unifying thread of a character or goal, please do share it with me, though, because I would rather see that meaning and unity than not see that meaning and unity.
     
  20. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013

    if that is the way you are viewing then yes you still can. It's no longer about Anakin Skywalker but instead the Skywalker family all 3 generations.

    Rember when the OT was the only series out it wasn't about Anakin at all or his redemption but just about Luke's journey. It wasn't until the PT came out that you could view it as the Journey of Anakin. The PT changed the overall theme of the movies. Just like the ST changes it to be about the entire Skywalker legacy.

    Having Rey be a skywalker would be the biggest mistake they could do in my opinion.

    the first one obviously about Anakin's fall, the OT is about Luke's rise, and the ST is about Kylo's journey.

    I would say that is pretty unifying.

    Sure you could argue that Kylo isn't the main character in the ST but neither was Anakin in TPM
     
  21. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @Vicarious Fan, thanks for sharing that perspective. I will keep it in mind next time I re-watch the saga or the Sequel films.
     
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  22. mike778

    mike778 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 9, 2012
    Everyone is different but I've never seen Star Wars as being a story about Anakin - for me its not even a story about Skywalkers, its a story about Star Wars. When ANH was made Darth Vader wasn't Anakin anyway so the whole thing was never meant to be 'that'.
    The real answer is that for a lot of people, it isn't coherent because they have grown up fantasising about how Luke would end up. And its not worked out the way they had in their head so for them its not coherent.

    Regarding the original question - why was there a need for ANH ?

    Films get made because their creators think that people will enjoy them and will pay money to watch them. They are entertainment and don't need to justify their existance by being 'necessary'. Ultimately if people don't like them they can ignore them and that part of the story if they want - its only a story. I don't particularly care for the prequels but I saw Darth Maul get gutted. He is dead so I don't care what the carton says. Same goes with Luke, if people want to happily think he was a superhero who could do know wrong then they can do - either bin of the sequels or pretend they were a dream or another timeline if they want.
     
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  23. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    F.W. Murnau believed that creating films was a very personal form of working out his own demons. I imagine quite a few filmmakers subscribe to that approach. It is why cinematic history is filled with films that made the average person viewing them wonder what it was even on about or why it exists.
     
  24. R.D.

    R.D. Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Lucas originally intended almost continuous films up into the nineties with directors changing around, moving along the story. So the idea of the ST was always out there in some form or another. And let's face it, for old-school fans like Abrams, why wouldn't you bring back Han and stormtroopers if you had the chance? Gotta wash out the taste of that PT somehow!
     
  25. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    The ST has little to no original ideas for SW, and will probably be forgotten alongside the majority of pop culture from the last ten years which endlessly circles the drain in a reboot/sequel purgatory. TFA is a rehash of ANH, full stop. There is not much more to it than that. Sure, the roles are updated for maximum-energy Disney Channel performances, but the story is the same beat for beat. It’s less like a sequel to the OT and more like a fan theory for one of JJ’s sci/fi tv shows, like, “dude, all the characters are stuck in a simulation and that’s why everything is repeating!”

    LFL had no idea what to do with SW and all that Disney cared about was a big box office, so JJ Abrams, ever the professional, conservatively recycled the most resonant material from the most resonant SW film and claimed it was original because there was a lead woman and a lead black man. But in terms of a story that logically flows from the main saga, none of it makes any sense at all. Why is a guy cosplaying as Palpatine? Why is the Millennium Falcon sitting in the heroine’s backyard, fully gassed, with the keys in it? Why is Han conveniently in the exact same place? What happened to Luke? Don’t worry, we’ll save that for the sequel . . . What happened to the Rebels and the Empire after ROTJ? Who cares, let’s just say they maybe did some stuff but now they’re exactly the same as before. Besides, those aren’t the kind of questions you’re supposed to ask when watching SW, it’s not Star Trek, you dummy.

    But TFA can at least be enjoyed for what it is, an amusing if nonsensical collision of X-wings, TIE Fighters, Stormtroopers and lightsabers. TLJ on the other hand is a dreary mess. It’s been explained a thousand times why it’s a bad film, so I don’t feel I need to get comprehensive here, but it recently occurred to me that there’s a hilarious irony to it I missed. In his effort to prove how well he understood SW through a critical deconstruction of its characters and themes, Rian Johnson unwittingly brought back the dumbest character arc in the saga. Just as GL decided to make Padme die from sadness, RJ decided that Luke exiled himself because he was sad, except this time he didn’t awkwardly shove it into the epilogue, he made a whole terrible film about it.

    Now, to the question of whether the ST was necessary, I say yes if for no other reason than that the OT cast was still alive and it would have been a joy to reunite them at the end of their careers to reprise the roles that started their careers. That alone made the ST necessary, and in a sense, LFL understood this was the primary reason fans and general audiences would show up. All the marketing around the return of SW was tied to this premise, that *they* were back. Even this was ruined, seemingly because JJ didn’t feel confident in writing the characters so he just killed one of them for dramatic effect.
     
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