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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga What does the ST add to the saga?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Whilliam, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    You rather failed to understand my point. That Vader did very bad things was not in question.
    What I commented about was that Obi-Wan had said that Anakin was a good man.
    So based on the OT, he was a good man, seduced by evil, did terrible things but managed to redeem himself.
    With the PT, I didn't see the good man before the fall.
    I saw an arrogant and rude jerk. One who likes to grandstand, to be praised.
    Thus his redemption works less well because there was not much of a good man there to begin with.

    Except RotJ makes turning to the dark side and becoming Palpatine's servant into very much the same thing.
    So RotJ makes it very clear that if Luke kills Vader in hate, he will turn and thus become Palpatine's servant.

    The FO in TFA, not TLJ, was not quite the Empire. They wanted to be but to me they came across as more of a group of fanatics and not a disciplined, organised empire.
    I did not much care for the reuse of the DS in the form of SKB or the attack which was really going to the well one time too many.
    But I though TLJ could do something with this.
    That the FO is much weaker because they lost their main weapon and now try to push their advantage despite not being all that strong.
    Vs the remains of the Republic that tries to organize their forces after the devastating attack.
    So the fight would be more equal.
    But TLJ ignored all that and made the FO super strong even without SKB and the republic totally weak and also incredibly incompetent.

    I also thought that the ST might eb able to do something more interesting with the "Balance of the Force" thing and not have it be just "Kill the bad guys."

    What you seem to forget is that Kylo was the VILLAIN in TFA.
    We were not supposed to like him or to root for him.
    Anakin in AotC was still intended to be the hero, the one we were supposed to care about and relate to.
    But I didn't.

    Also, at least some of Kylo rants and tantrums were a little funny, Anakin's were just awkward.

    [/QUOTE]

    And you would be 100% wrong.
    First, Jedi being serious and committed does not mean that have to be cold and uncaring.
    Both Spock and Sarek managed to be very serious and committed and yet they showed that they did have feelings, that they did care and that they gave a ****.
    Second;
    Ex 1, Obi-Wan in ANH. I liked him a lot. He had warmth, charm, some humor.
    He could be serious but he also gave me the idea that he cared.
    Ex 2, Qui-Gon, one scene I liked was between him and Shmi, were they are just talking and he asks if she will be alright and puts his hand on her shoulder. This showed warmth, care, compassion and two people talking, not just making speeches at each other.
    Simple scene but I liked it a lot. It showed that he cared about her, not in a romantic sense but he wanted her to be fine. And he tried to free her from slavery.
    He had nothing to directly gain by helping her, nothing that forced him to but he still tried because he liked her, because he cared and because it was the right thing to do.
    The rest of the Jedi did not seem very interested in doing that.

    So no, it was quite possible to make the PT Jedi less dull, less cold and uncaring and still have them be serious and committed.

    First, I think you should be aware that there is a degree of difference between not likable and UN-likable.
    A character can be not likable and thus I don't much like him/her but I won't necessarily DISLIKE him/her.
    That one character is one that I don't care much about one way or another and don't mind seeing while another actively annoys me and I want to STOP seeing.
    Anakin in AotC was the latter.

    Ex, the Nolan film the Prestige.
    Both main characters I can't say I really liked, at least not fully as both did some very bad things in their pursuit of their obsession/rivalry.
    But they didn't cross the line into me really disliking them. Well one sort of does towards the end when he becomes pretty much a villain.

    Second, ex. Say you got to a Restaurant and order a meal. This meal is made with top quality ingredients, made by the most state of the art kitchen utensils and is served on the finest porcelain and the wine is served in crystal glas.
    But when you taste the food and drink, you find out that it is not to your taste, you don't like them.
    So then all the fancy stuff with ingredients etc does not really matter, because the meal fails to satisfy because you don't like the taste.

    It is the same with films, books, stories.
    The first thing a storyteller must learn to do is to hook the audience.
    To make them invested, to make them care enough to keep watching, reading, listening.
    If the story teller fails at this and looses the audience and they stop caring, then no matter how careful the story is told or what clever tricks it has, the audience might not care too much because they are no longer invested.

    But both of these require you to in some form or another to CARE about the person in question.
    If you watch a film and there is one character that you can not stand, that you despise.
    That everyone time this character shows up, you want to stop watching and would rather the person go away.
    Then something really tragic happens to this person.
    Would you likely be;
    a) sad and feel empathy for this poor person?
    Or b) laugh at his misery and be happy?

    First, how do you know that many don't like one or the other. What you feel are your feelings, and there is nothing wrong with them. But of someone feels differently than you, that does not make them wrong either.
    Second, I did not see a duel between two good friends because Lucas did not really show Anakin and Obi-Wan as good friends. They said it at times but SHOW, don't tell.

    I don't buy this excuse for two reason;
    One, I have seen this pop up when people make a complaint about some negative in the PT.
    Say that the acting was stiff and wooden and people try to defend it by saying the acting was supposed to be stiff and wooden.
    Just because something was intentionally made to be a certain way does not mean it is no longer a negative.
    Second, I think Lucas DID want us to sympathize with Anakin. Like showing him getting separated from his mother at a young age, that he used to be a slave and so on.
    It was just that not everyone thinks he succeeded..

    [/QUOTE]

    Who are these "Many"?
    Luke shows quite a lot of emotions in RotJ.
    Ex, when he first sees the Rancor, he looks a bit scared and worried. And after he killed it, he breaths a sigh of relief.
    When talking with Yoda, Luke raises his voice a bit when he says;
    So a bit of emotion there.
    And when Yoda dies, again emotion on his face.

    Afterwards, Luke says he can't go on alone, showing doubt and a bit of despair.
    Then Obi-Wan shows up and there is a bit of anger when Luke confronts him about why Obi-Wan lied to him before.

    And when Luke meets Leia later, she asks him what is wrong and later still on Endor, she confronts him again what is bothering him.
    So she could could clearly sense that Luke was not feeling well.

    So Luke in RotJ shows a lot more emotion and care than most PT Jedi.
    At least in my view.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I found both Anakin and Kylo’s tantrums annoying, but I gave Anakin more of a pass because despite the fact that he was definitely too old to be behaving that way, he had just left adolescence (unlike Kylo, who was supposed to leave it 10-12 years earlier), and because the PT gave us his background as a slave. The ST has yet to give us any background on Kylo, other than a few lame attempts to blame the OT3 for his problems, or any reason that he would behave the way he does. Maybe IX will rectify that. Disappointed in one’s parents for inexplicable reasons or a Vader fanboy is not going to do it for me.
     
  3. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Definitely. Even Anakin's tantrums/anger stemmed from relatively understandable things such as looking for a paternal figure to replace missing his mother and fear of loss. Kylo just seems to get angry/upset because he didn't commit enough evil deeds. The only time Anakin commits evil for power is by the time he's fully seduced in the dark side like on Mustafar when he rants about ruling the galaxy. But his motivation was to save people he cared for. Kylo doesn't have the same motivation. By the ST's backstory, he just got obsessed over his grandfather's legacy and actively seeked to kill his loved ones just to become something his grandfather didn't.

    And the PT doesn't actively blame Obi-Wan for failing Anakin. Sure, Obi-Wan wasn't what Anakin needed or wanted. Anakin needed a parent, not a brother like Obi-Wan considered Anakin. That's why Anakin founded more solace in Palpatine's more fatherly role, but the task of a 25 year old raising a 10 year old as a son is no easy task. And Obi-Wan did the best he could for Anakin, and with experience, changes his mistakes with Luke. Hell, it gives him bit of an arc because he understandably doesn't want to train Anakin in TPM but volunteers to watch over Luke in ROTS out of respect for his friend.

    In the end, it was still Anakin's choice. Not the fault of his mentors.

    (Off topic but that's why a Kenobi movie can have some good life lessons about not internalizing guilt. :p)
     
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    To me, Anakin in AotC is very rude several times. He interrupts, talks back to his master and is very irritating and annoying.
    And given how well behaved, calm and overall mature he is at nine, how he lacks those things at 19-20 and after ten years of jedi studies seems odd to me.

    And again, Anakin is still supposed to be the hero, a person we are supposed to like and care about.
    Kylo is not. He is a villain and so his outbursts are at least funny at times.
    They make him less intimidating sure but that was the intent.
    He can be dangerous yes but not intimidating.

    [/QUOTE]

    While it was Anakin's choices that got him there, I don't think the Jedi are blameless.
    They didn't always help matters.

    Ex, Obi-Wan has just become a knight and now he is to train a Jedi. One who has a very different background than all their other students. And one that the Jedi Masters are worried about and sees dark things in his future.
    And who also happens to be the most important Jedi alive and is the only who can kill the Sith.
    If any Jedi needed extra attention or help during his studies, it would be Anakin.
    But they just let Obi-Wan handle it and give him no help.

    Also, his mother. I think it would be obvious to the Jedi that Anakin missed and worried about his mother.
    And an easy way to help him with that would be to free her from slavery and let Anakin know she is free and lives well.
    That would put his mind at ease and he would then have an easier time letting go.
    But they do nothing and lets Anakin suffer for ten years.
    And they also leave Shmi to her fate, a women that helped one of their number without thought of reward.

    Personally, I think this was just an oversight by Lucas. He needed Shmi to stay behind so he had her remain a slave. But once the battle of Naboo was over, there would be characters that would have both the means and motive to help Shmi. Padme and the Jedi.
    A line of dialogue from Padme would be enough, "Don't worry about your mother Anakin, I have sent some people to buy her freedom." Simple.
    And the events of AotC could still happen as they did.
    The Jedi/Padme would just look less uncaring.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  5. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Solely as an extension of Luke's story and ignoring everything else, the ST acts as the "return" phase of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth. The OT represents the "Departure" and "Initiation" phases, but stops there (with the "Ultimate boon"). So that's:

    • Refusal of the Return -- Luke being a hermit
    • the Magic Flight --- Force projection
    • Rescue from Without --- Rey
    • Crossing of the Return Threshold -- Luke's projection consoling Leia and confronting Kylo
    • Master of Two Worlds
    • Freedom to Live
    I assume we'll see the next two steps in Ep.IX when Luke's a Force ghost.



    From my understanding of the Lucas quotes, the midi-chlorians would have acted as the setup for the Wills.
     
  6. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Excellent points @Samuel Vimes. I have always felt this way as well.
     
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  7. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    This, at least, doesn't fit. The Refusal of the Return is about the hero being reluctant to leave the supernatural world for the secular world because of the temptation to remain in the supernatural world and keep the boon for himself. Luke in TLJ has cut himself off from the supernatural world and confined himself to the secular world because he has totally rejected the boon and its worth to anyone.

    Campbell: "When the hero-quest has been accomplished, through penetration to the source, or through the grace of some male or female, human or animal, personification, the adventurer still must return with his life-transmuting trophy. The full round, the norm of the monomyth, requires that the hero shall now begin the labor of bringing the runes of wisdom, the Golden Fleece, or his sleeping princess, back into the kingdom of humanity, where the boon may redound to the renewing of the community, the nation, the planet or the ten thousand worlds. But the responsibility has been frequently refused. Even Gautama Buddha, after his triumph, doubted whether the message of realization could be communicated, and saints are reported to have died while in the supernal ecstasy. Numerous indeed are the heroes fabled to have taken up residence forever in the blessed isle of the unaging Goddess of Immortal Being."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey#Return
     
  8. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I'd argue it fits like this:

    Refusal of the Return: This doesn't really fit with Luke's character, since his actions are typically motivated by selflessness, rather than selfishness, but I'd argue the time spent away from the galaxy collecting Jedi lore is his refusal to return to the secular world. There are hints of this in the novelisation that Luke was worried about restarting the Jedi.

    The Magic Flight: More adventures between the trilogies, eventually resulting in his great failure. Essentially Luke's attempt to create the Jedi order was his attempt to bring the boon back to the secular world. His Magic Flight is essentially a momentary failure.

    The Crossing of the Return Threshold: Luke is essentially stuck on this until Rey gets there and Yoda pushes him over the edge in TLJ. Basically his exile.

    Master of Two Worlds: This is the most obvious - he's literally in two places at once at the end of TLJ, both the spiritual and the physical. He attains enlightenment.

    Freedom to Live: Essentially Luke as a Force Ghost.
     
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  9. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Not sure if it has been already mentioned: Starkiller Base :p

    Regarding the current discussion it has been my understanding that the purpose of myth-telling, the way I understand Joe Campbell, is first and foremost to provide something up-lifting and something positively motivating at the end of the day. Frankly I'm not that much aware of mythological stories that have a negative outcome and are told in a way so that audiences take a warning to heart.

    The only exception that inevitably comes to my mind is the PT, Lucas was bold enough to go for the anti-thesis of the hero's journey and illustrate the dangers of our time which sadly enough have come too true to comfort, when I look at all the dictatorships that have come into existence ever since the PT.

    In that regard the ST looks somewhat derivative as - regarding the OT characters - it goes for yet another anti-thesis but IMHO lacks the substance and vision Lucas invested into the PT.
     
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  10. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    That's definitely not the purpose of myth-telling. Myths are designed to be illustrations of the human experience - both positive and negative. There are plenty of myths that have negative and cautionary outcomes.
     
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  11. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of Campbell here. The quoted text (which constitutes the first two paragraphs of the relevant section in HwaTF (p.193). In the rest of the section, to illustrate the concept of the Refusal of the Return, he tells the myth of King Muchukunda, who, after obtaining the Ultimate Boon, was simply tired and wanted to sleep, so he slept "through the revolving eons" as civilizations rose and fell, until he was woken up by Vishnu incarnate. That doesn't necessarily sound like a hero "being reluctant to leave the spiritual world for the secular world." That could be a reason, I'm not sure it's necessarily the reason for the Refusal, in Campbell's framework.

    You could be right though. Perhaps, for this story, it would have worked better if Luke Refused to Return for "spiritual" reasons --maybe he's too busy in a meditative trance contemplating the mysteries of the Force, or something-- and maybe the way the original idea. Who knows.



    EDIT: I forgot. I could be argued that Force-Ghost Yoda is Rescue from Without (instead of or in addition to Rey).
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  12. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I find Anakin very relatable and likeable myself. Many people do but that isn't where the emphasis on the character is. The key difference is that Lucas isn't crafting his character to conform to the usual factors that engender that in an audience as he very specifically did with Luke in ANH and TESB before making him "colder" in ROTJ.

    The relatable and likeable aspects of Luke are very personalized to the character and get that focus in the movies while for Anakin it's made less personalized to his actual personalty as opposed to his experiences as a human. It's "off" emotionally because he's off emotionally.

    Luke in essence is supposed to be us. An idealized version of ourselves that we want to be while Anakin is not idealized. He's more the reality of people or rather their weaknesses. Luke is going to succeed while Anakin is going to fail. Who wants to identify with the guy who is going to lose? In the prequels there is only one "winner" and that is Sidious.

    It's not strange at all over a 6 movie saga told in two trilogies. Anakin and Luke's journey's are inverse to each other. Anakin's is about descent, giving into fear, anger and greed descending into suffering while Luke's is about ascent and overcoming fear, anger and greed and ascending into happiness.

    Well that is for them to decide. Lucas himself (nor anyone else for that matter) can't "make" anyone feel anything. That Lucas set aside a lot if not all of the usual ways and means of getting the audience on Anakin's "side" as a character is demonstrable and evident.

    The original version of Rogue One had a quite different "Sargent" Jyn Erso. Think back to even the reaction to her from the teaser but in the final movie her arc was overhauled and they even did the "running to save small child and handing to mother" gag.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  13. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    You seem to be suggesting that the way Anakin was written was the only and best way to write that particular character. It seems to be an excuse to handwave away criticism. Perhaps Lucas failed to write a character that is both likable and who falls.
     
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  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    As I said before, this is wrong as Luke still shows lots of emotions in RotJ.
    Heck, he goes totally wild in rage and anger at one point.
    "Unemotional" or "Cold"? Far from it.
    At most he is more calm and controlled but he still has feelings and he shows that.

    There are quite a number of ways to make a character likable, that people can relate to them, sympathize, or empathize with them.

    Take Han Solo in ANH. He is quite likable despite being self-centered, a bit greedy and out for himself.
    The character had charm and humor that made him likable.

    Tyrion Lannister in Got is quite likable despite him working for "The bad guys" for several seasons.
    And he has flaws a plenty.

    And speaking of GoT, it has several characters that are likable and also loose.
    So that is no excuse.
    And to me it works counter to the tragedy aspect to NOT have Anakin likable.
    Jack in Titanic is quite likable and he dies at the end.
    Their romance is doomed as one of them dies and yet both characters are made to have sides that people can like, relate to and sympathize with.

    And in both instances, the audience is supposed to care, to be invested in what is going on.

    [/QUOTE]

    Actually what is evident and demonstrable is that Lucas used several ways to try and get the audience on Anakin's side.
    How do we meet him in TPM?
    A cute, nice and caring kid who is great at lots of things. Very clearly designed to appeal to the audience, esp kids.
    Then he gets a tragic backstory, he has been a slave for most of his young life.
    To garner sympathy from the audience.
    Then more tragedy as he is separated from a clearly loving mother at a young age and misses her and worries about her.
    Even more sympathy and empathy there.
    And that is just TPM.

    No Lucas tried quite hard to get the audience on Anakin's side but to some, he didn't pull it off.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  15. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    How people feel about it is not "wrong" that is subjective feeling. Now objectively Luke was "colder" and Lucas made him so. Yes he's shows emotions but not in the same way as ANH and TESB. Anakin is by far the most emotional character ever in Star Wars.

    Which is exactly what happens with Anakin but clearly Lucas didn't do things in the way that he knows would engender the specific type of responses that Luke and Han did.

    Look at Han. He's Captain Creepy in TESB with his advances on Leia but he's forgiven because of the matured rogue-ishness. Anakin isn't by many because he's totally damned awkward and not-confident.

    Yet obviously many were so that is a non-issue for those that did. I have some shocking news for anyone who thinks that Luke's story was at the very top of mind for everyone. It wasn't. For decades people complained about ROTJ and for so many Luke's story was one of their least concerns. They were more concerned by the Rebel story and the Ewoks and they seemed to wish for a better ending where Luke kills Vader and Sidious himself. Personally I was completely into the Luke, Vader and Sidious/Emperor story from the first but many were not. They were quite disappointed after the first two movies.

    That was my favorite part of the entire trilogy so hardly surprising that the story behind it in the PT has been so amazing as an experience for me.

    Which is exactly the point. In TPM Lucas did a very specific presentation in TPM to accentuate these aspects of Anakin in TPM which he didn't in AOTC. In TPM we meet the young and innocent Anakin. In AOTC we meet a new person who used to be that but now is the young "Darth Vader."

    As has been talked about ad nauseam Lucas could have done the blatantly easy thing and have an older actor of say 12 to play Anakin. Arguably he could even have tried to get a teenager play him as 14 then set AOTC 5 years later and have one actor for all 3 movies.

    Instead he decided to play Anakin very young then time jump with a new actor and reintroduce an effectively almost new character (though a lot of that Anakin is also present in the new one)

    Again if Lucas wanted the audience to be on Anakin's "side" in AOTC particularly then he could have done that easily. He didn't want to. As ever AOTC is the crux point because Anakin is far more "likeable" in that context in ROTS. TPM and ROTS are linked through AOTC and that clearly is where the people who have problems really concentrate on.

    Yet being on Anakin's side when he slaughters the Tuskens would undermine the character point. Sure Lucas could have had his mother stay alive until after he rescues her from the Sandpeople who find him and attack then he kills them (men only) in self-defence, get Shmi out, take her home and she dies there.

    Fine but then the entire impact of that is lost.

    So again what I perceive you are saying is that you prized liking Anakin and the emotion of sympathy over a character and story arc that Lucas as the artist felt was best.

    Once again as Lucas did in the OT it'd be the easiest thing in the world to make Anakin in AOTC done the "proper" way in terms of sympathy and the romance but it's not anywhere near as interesting a story nor does it contribute what it does to ROTS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  16. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2013
    I never suffered from the idea that Anakin had to be likeable because I knew that he had to be flawed as he chose to turn to the dark side. Anakin is likeable in TPM, but later not so much - not because of Lucas' failure, but because of everything that had to happen to him in order to turn. He's been manipulated by Palpatine, feels held up by Kenobi, forbidden love by Padme... But that makes his story more compelling.

    However, I see that they tried to make Kylo Ren likeable (well, in a way) and failed, because they couldn't capture the Han Solo character type of likeness and decided not to further explore his turn and separation with parents and Luke, which made his killing of Han very underwhelming.
     
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  17. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011

    The idea that Lucas couldn't possibly produce a likeable character who also fell is frankly absued. The irony is that he produced a likeable Anakin, who had flickers of the dark side, in TCW. Obviously the moments of the dark side aren't going to be likeable - that's not the issue. The issue is when he's a good man in the PT he's also not likeable.
     
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  18. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Personally, I felt the way Anakin was portrayed (whiny, unstable, overemotional, obsessive) was perfect to make his turning to the Darkside believable. Someone who is emotionally unstable would find it far more difficult to resist temptation of desirable things-even if they are wrong, rather than to choose to sacrifice their desires and obsessions for the sake of doing the right thing. If we were shown an Anakin who was a whiz-kid hero figure with a heart of gold, him suddenly being seduced by evil in the third part of a trilogy would be much harder to swallow.

    And I agree with what has been said: Anyone who didn't get enough of the "good hero" Anakin in the PT should simply watch TCW series. That will satisfy that need for sure!
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  19. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    And that's great that it worked for you. What I find ridiculous is is the idea that it was meant to be that way (I think it would be an odd filmmaking choice) or that it had to be that way.
     
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  20. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    I don't think Anakin's character has anything to do with the topic of this thread.
     
  21. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    The ST is trying to maintain the peace that was won and live up to their legends is reallllly hard. The only one who pulls it off is Leia (and even she is wracked with guilt over how her family has turned out). The next generation finds out that the heroes they knew are human and make mistakes but still the heroes do make a stand for when it is right and come through in the clutch and do inspire the next generation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I wouldn't call it colder, but mature and stoic. Virtually closer to what a proper Jedi should be.
     
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  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Not only do you contradict your own reasoning by first saying it is subjective and then saying something as objective truth.
    But Luke is not colder in RotJ. He is more calm, more mature. He still has emotions, he still cares, deeply even. He just isn't wearing all his emotions on his sleeves. He does loose that calm and gets enraged at the end of his fight with Vader.
    Take Love, Luke loves his father so much that he is willing to risk death to save him.
    And it is a love that on the face of it seems foolish or naive. Vader has done so much bad and yet Luke still loves him and has faith in him.

    And again, there are dozens of other ways to make characters likable in addition to what he did with Luke and Han.
    And I think he did do some Luke or Han things with Anakin. He just didn't do them very well in my opinion.
    Luke cares and wants to help, that is present in Anakin. Luke is a bit naive, Anakin has that as well.
    Han is cocky, sure of himself and a bit of a bad boy. Anakin has some of those elements as well.

    Anakin is AotC comes across as way more of a creepy stalker than Han, at least to me.
    He creeps Padme out to the point that she turns of the cameras that are there to protect her life.
    So she would rather risk her life than have Anakin look at her.

    Again who are these "Many"?
    And what are you arguing here?
    That for some Anakin in the PT worked and that makes it objectively great and anyone that who thinks differently is wrong?

    My point was this, audience investment and caring is necessary for both Anakin's and Luke's story.
    So the argument that the audience wasn't supposed to care or be invested in Anakin is false.

    You rather missed the point, by making Anakin in TPM this way, Lucas very much wanted him to be likable and have the audience on his side.
    So when AotC starts, the audience is still supposed to on Anakin's side and still is supposed to like him.
    And Lucas still wanted the audience to like Anakin and be on his side.
    And they should stay that way until the turn in RotS.
    The problem is that to me and others, he didn't quite succeed.

    When you establish a character you need to hit certain notes harder in order to get the audience to a certain point. Liking a character, disliking a character etc.
    The next film, you have this foundation and thus don't need to hit these things as hard a the first time.
    You still need to do some of it if you want the audience to feel the same as before.

    And I think Lucas did some blatantly easy things with Anakin in TPM.
    Cute, nice and young kid, easy to like, check.
    He is very very special, he is of divine birth and there is a prophecy about him, check.
    He is really great at lots of things, check.

    But Lucas wanted the audience to be on Anakin's side even in AotC, he just didn't pull it off and that is why some have issues with it.
    So it wasn't by design, it was failed execution. Again in my opinion.

    What I think happened is that some complained after TPM that Anakin was TOO nice and sweet and so Lucas overcompensated and made Anakin really dark.
    Then some had issues with that as well and Lucas pulled back a bit.
    This, to me, cause the character to jump around too much and there is no consistent arc or flow in his development as a character.
    Start nice and good and then gradually get darker until he turns.

    But the impact it had on me is that from that point on wards, I saw Anakin as evil.
    A mass murderer who did not regret what he did and did not seek help or tell the Jedi.
    Again, this was NOT what Lucas intended but that was the result for me.

    No, I am saying that Lucas made Anakin so unlikable that the romance, the tragedy of his mother's death and the tragedy of his fall were diminished to the point where I simply did not care at all.
    And like I have said several times now, this was NOT the intent, but it was the result.

    You keep focusing on intent but to me result matters a great deal more.
    I will judge a film, book, play, story etc on the RESULT, not what the creator intended.
    Those might be somewhat interesting to talk about by my enjoyment or lack there off comes from the result.

    If a person INTENDS to tell a funny joke but I don't laugh, then I will judge the joke on that result and not that the person intended to tell a funny joke.

    [/QUOTE]

    And I disagree, I didn't find Anakin the slightest bit interesting in AotC. He was grating and irritating to the point that I wanted him off the screen. And that was NOT what Lucas intended.
    This also killed the romance as I didn't want to watch it as he was so annoying and it also killed the Sand People thing as while I did care about Shmi, I did not care at all about Anakin.
    And it also caused problems with some of the third part as I mostly wanted Anakin to get slapped across the face.

    But we have dragged this rather off-topic now so better to leave it.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  24. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2013
    It has, it's better to criticize his character, Lucas and, guess what, the PT, than to conclude that the ST added nothing to the saga.
     
    Alexrd likes this.
  25. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    To be the overarching narrative of the ST should / would have / still could be the validation of Leia as the other hope but her redeeming her son in the way Luke redeemed their father. Also the finality of bringing true balance to the force when Kylo and Rey decide to be on the same side for the sake of the galaxy.
    In terms of non storytelling I think it quite brilliantly follows themes of the PT while setting them in a visually OT like setting
     
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