What if George Lucas Hates Fanfiction?

The problem here is, Ms. Hobb is concerned only with one thing; profit. She claims that's only part of it, but in reality all she is after are your $$$.

Think about this: Nothing is completely 'original' anymore. If Oedipus was alive today, he could sue the pants off everybody. Shakespeare would sue romance novelists and comic writers, Poe would come back and sue Stephen King and any other suspense and horror writer; Sir Arthur Conan Doyle would sue any mystery writer; Jules Verne would sue Sci-Fi writers, so on and so forth.

The problem is; Ms. Hobb is getting the word 'original' confused with 're-imagining'. Everything, every type of situation in the human experience has been touched on by some author in antiquity. The gadgets might change, the characters might have different names and the settings might change, but as far as the human condition goes, it's already been done. If she writes about trolls, (I have no idea what she writes about and have no desire to now) guess what, she's infringing on the Grimm Brothers fairy tales, or possibly some even earlier work.

The thing is; probably a fair amount of fan fic writers would love to publish their own stories. Problem 1) very few people want to read anything 'original' anymore, unless it's in big, flashy colors. Problem 2) most literary agents, (the good ones with actual contacts in the publishing industry) charge exhorbidant (sp?) reading fees and rarely take on new clients anyway. The majority of us have no shot at getting an agent and a publishing contract. So what does that leave the aspiring writer who just wants someone, anyone to read a story they wrote? Fan fiction.

As for the issue of copyright. Let me relate it in terms I can relate better; I'm a musician. Say I have a band; I make an album and call it Nevermind Here are the track listing:
1) Smells Like Teen Spirit
2) In Bloom
3) Come As You Are
4) Breed
5) Lithium
6) Polly
7) Territorial P!ssings
8) Drain You
9) Lounge Act
10) Stay Away
11) On a Plain
12) Something in the Way

Those of you who know the album by Nirvana are screaming; copyright infringement! Wrong. Every melody, all the music and all the words are different. There is no copyright on titles. As long as I don't call the band Nirvana and recycle the same melodies, it's not a violation of jack.

Ms. Hobbs needs to take a good, hard look at her own writing; determine if it is so completely 'original' after all, or if a writer from antiquity could claim anything in her writing as his/her own. For those of you who have 'original' characters, please check out iUniverse.com or some of the other self-publishers, I did and published a book. Ms. Hobbs probably thinks that would be good for writers to do instead of 'copying' her work. The problem with self-publishing is; you have to promote your own work. And that costs money; you have to know managers of book stores to stock your books, otherwise they are only available for purchase online.

EDIT: Also, yeah, she could sue someone and the disgusting court system would back her; the problem is I have a feeling she would spend more in lawyer's fees than she would be able to extract from her choice of victims. Then she would no recourse but to have them charged in criminal court; and I don't think it would do her career much good to be known for putting people in jail who were writing fan fic (as fans of her work after all) I exclude from my rant the kind of filth that is slash; that I can agree with her about, sort of. I don't slash has any place in civilized society, so they should have a little website all to themselves and make it 'members only' so they can pervert each other to their little hearts are content with Kirk/Spock and whatever else. *end edited rant*

Anyway, I hope I have made a point.

*end rant*

 

Hey, slow down on the Robin Hobb hate! She does write really good books, I promise. I've read all of them, they are high fantasy-ish, and I've even considered using a variation of an idea or two she had in them. They are very, very good books - the 'Royal Assasin' series, the 'Mad Ship' series, and then the 'Golden Fool' series that ties them together.

So, yes, she is a wonderful writer. Does she know anything about fanfiction? Probably not enough. Is she a little too uptight? Yes.

Still a good writer. Be nice.

 

I don't think people are necessarily attacking her as a writer; I'm sure her books are very good. Rather, she's being criticized for the sheer ridiculousness of her statements. She's basically telling people "you can look at my pretty worlds, BUT YOU CAN'T TOUCH THEM!" Personally, I think it would be nice if authors would at least try and get to know the fanfics written about their books. I've read some that would make these authors very pleased.

Clarifying a thought I wrote in my earlier post on this thread, if her books are so good and selling so well, what does she have to worry about? It would seem in that case she has a good strong fanbase who would buy her writing no matter what. So what's so threatening about fanfics of her novels? I know that if you tell people about a book, they're generally more open to checking it out next time they're at a library/bookstore, so if anything, fanfics are a free advertisement for her series.

 

If Robin Hobb doesn't want fan fiction of her work, that's her right. And I know for a fact that the major fan fiction sites, such as fanfiction.net, respect her wishes, and do not allow people to post fanfic based off her work. She can hate fan fiction all she wants, too. That's her opinion, and really, nothing else. Though I will admit here that I doubt she has much to fear. I've heard of her, but she's nowhere near popular enough to inspire hoards of fic around the internet. And, I have noticed (though not in a scientific way) that the works that most inspire fanfiction tend to be visual, either movies or anime or games.

For example, I wonder how much Harry Potter fanfiction there was BEFORE the movie adaptations, but I haven't checked. Novels that haven't been made into movies, that are only novels, don't seem to inspire much fan fiction.

My issue is with the way she depicts reading in her little rant. She wants the reader to see only the interpretation that she intended in her work, and, well. That is not possible. It just isn't. When you write something, and release it to the public, people will see things you never intended. Reading should not be a passive act. Readers bring something to the book when they read. (What certain authors call the Reader's 50%, which is used to full effect in writing fan fiction.) Certainly, when you write something, you have certain intentions of what you presented, but you can only hope that the readers will see what you mean them to see. But how they will see it will vary.

You cannot, just cannot, control how people will see and interpet your work, but that's what Hobb clearly wants to do, when she says she wants the reader to see exactly what she sees, exactly as she writes it. Um... No. You can't make me see exactly what you saw. Even if you describe something in minute detail, I'll still have my own vision in my head of it, and it won't be yours.

But I digress.

Now, I write original fiction myself (My fan fic is but an experiment, but then, most of my writing is). I have never thought much about fan fiction, since the sort of thing I write so does not inspire it. Yet-- I don't have this sense of ownership about my works that Hobb so clearly has about hers. Oh, I'm attached to it--I work too much on it not to be. But I don't think MINE!, and guard it fiercely like a cat growling over a kill.

Actually, I like the idea of people writing about a universe I created, BECAUSE they would see things I wouldn't, and depict different parts of it than I had. I would have written one story, but they would write other, different, ones. They would not write about my characters, but make up their own. But alas, it would never work.

Oh, and if you think Robin Hobb hates fan fiction, I read a comment on a blog from author Jo Walton that said she not only won't tolerate fan fiction based off her work, she would do anything necessary to make sure it is removed from the net--and she has no limit to that anything. (I don't think she means going personally to the writer's house and breaking their hands and their computers. Surely not! But she said anything.) Like Hobb, I think Walton has little to fear. She's written Arthurian based Celtic fantasy, and let's face it. I can write my own Arthurian book. I don't need to rip off hers.

 

Pandora26 posted: She's written Arthurian based Celtic fantasy, and let's face it.

See what I mean? I guess nobody read my last post because it is the last post on page 1, but that's exactly my point. If the first person who wrote the King Arthur story were still alive, this "Jo Walton" would be sued, sued, sued! There are no truly 'original' writings anymore, just levels of derivitives. Jo Walton wouldn't be so smug about fan fiction if he/she were sued out of his/her pants. If all the authors of old who truly did something 'original' were still around, Stephen King, Jo Walton, Robin Hobb, John Grisham, all these people would be writing fan fic!

And that's the 'original' truth!

 

You know, you had me up until your edit.

A) I think you are WAY over generalizing here. Not ALL slash fics are "Perverted garbage".

B) This part is almost as bad as Robin the whiner - just because YOU don;t like it doesn't mean it should be banished to the darkest corner of the web.

C) I know that quite a few authors (even here at TF.N) are very accomplished "slash writers" - their pairings might be not to your liking but the Stories are incredibly beautifuly crafted, and the 'AU' is just as believable as any other - in some cases even moreso then your standard 'straight pairing'. Like any work, it's all a matter of the talent of the author.

 

Interesting thread:


Curiously, the fantasy author hasn't the faintest idea of how the law reads on this particular topic. Arguably, each and every fanfic is transformative in nature. In other words, you are providing your interpretation of a created character that you read in a book or saw in a movie etc. Since your interpretation, obviously, differs in some way from the original author, your piece is a commentary.

Such commentary (of a transformative nature) is protected under the 'Fair Use Doctrine' (Disclaimer: United States Federal law), provided you aren't attempting to benefit from your work commercially. A number of the pieces of fanfic are of a parody nature...which, also, happens to be protected under the same Statutes.

Obviously, each accusation of 'copyright' infringement could be evaluated (and should be) individually based on the burdens of the law (which changes regularly). But, as things now sit, there is nothing wrong with taking a character(s) you enjoy and voicing your opinion of how that character reflects in your own mind.

An author could say that the use of their characters lessens the market value of their new work due to the ability to ready stories on a regular basis right here on this forum. However, they would still have the burden of proving a concrete loss of revenue...Which is virtually impossible I'd say as I take another sip of Sumatra from my Episode III mug.

Short version: Robin (sorry, don't know her last name) should stick to writing, and not try to impress upon others that she has diverse talents. I'm embarrassed for her ignorance...and less likely to ever pick up anything she's written.

Cheers,
Trep

PS: If you think there aren't published authors out there that come to this forum and enjoy some of the more solid pieces...guess again

 

Oh I am more than certain of it -

After all, not only do we have registered VIPS *cough MWStover *cough* and to be very honest, I would find it impossible to think that ideas especially can't bleed over, especially as we are in the same universe.

Also, a 'sock' is a wonderful way to play 'joe/jane user', and just read for the sake of finding a wonderful story.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I wanted to, but didn't have the courage to be the first one. There is makes-no-sense garbage in all genres of fic - slash, straight, even genfic without pairings. I've seen disgusting stories that have no romance at all, and plenty of heterosexual pairing stories that ended up out-of-character and sickening. And I've read slash that was written so wonderfully it was perfectly believable and made me almost cry. I'm reading one WIP at FFN right now and it's a good, believable AU with everybody in-character. (I actually have no preference and enjoy all three types of fic, with some variance depending on the character(s) involved.)

Personal preference is fine, and I wouldn't ever get on someone's case for not liking slash, but it is unfair to deride the entire genre simply because one doesn't like it or there are some fics that are bad. I can't stand birth stories and some of them (as is true of any category) really stink, but I wouldn't ever say these stories shouldn't be written or can't be good. I just skip them in most cases, and those who like can read, and there's no harm done.

I agree that slash shouldn't be posted to TFN because it's in violation of the TOS, but this doesn't apply to all other archives. Plus, most people are very good about labeling their stories so that those who don't like the genre know ahead of time.

 

I'll state right up front that I don't care for slash, don't read it, and would rather stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la la la" than hear about some of the unbelievably off-the-wall pairings people have come up with.

But I believe that these people have every right in the world write it. If it makes them happy, and they're not earning money off it at the author's expense, who cares?

I write fanfiction, and I write original works as well. If I am ever lucky enough to get any of my original stuff published, will I flip out if someone writes fanfiction based on it, will I freak out if it's completely AU slash? No -- I'd be flattered that someone loved my world enough to imagine their own variations on it and actually write them out. And if it were something truly ridiculous, I might get a good laugh out of it, but I certainly wouldn't lambast them in a public forum or sic my lawyers on them.

Methinks Ms. Hobbs needs to switch to decaf....

 

Lucas wouldn't give a bantha fodder about fan fiction. If anything he'd welcome it...it's his bread and butter as far as he's concerned. Fans will continue the hype machine for him and he'll keep churning out the crap...er...merchandise that they so clammer for. Not the movies mind you, as far as he's said...they're over. I'm talking about all the toys, books, posters, collective dinner plates, matching his and her underoos....he knows where the money is. The fans.

William Shatner may tell his salivating brood to "Get a life", but Lucas would be one to jump up and say "Buy my CRAP!!"

 

Thank you!!! I write and read slash, and it has good and bad stories just like het fan fiction...one of the best love stories I have ever read is a slash fiction...it is all about preference.

 

In the case of books, I generally respect the right of the author to forbid fanfic. Besides, in most cases I really feel the books don't NEED fanfic. I'd rather wait for the original. And I like Hobb's books, though I can see why folks would want to start getting fanficy with the last one.

But her hostility towards ALL fanfic is a little disturbing. I do agree with Pandora26 on what it says about how she sees readers. Luckily I was planning on getting her new book via the library anyway.

As for slash, I neither read nor write it, but I have no problem with those who do. And slashers are usually pretty good about labeling their stuff, so it's easy to avoid. ::shrug:: I really don't get why it's such an issue.

 

I think it's an issue because they view it as a "rip off" of their copywrited works. But they are powerless to stop the process until the person tries to sell that fic as their own. Which many do know...if you do...you're sooo going to sued.

Which is why I think many writers and some film companies overlook fan fics as "mostly harmless". The minute you step out of that non-profit role and sell your fan fic...they'll be on you faster then Chewie was to a dangling piece of meat in the middle of a dense forest.

 

What if GL hates fanfics????

who cares?

In the grand scheme of things its doubtful he will ever see anything I write in SW. So why should I care if he likes them or not. I dont sit and write thinking what would GL think. Next I'd be staring at myself in the mirror trying to get my tie on right thinking what would GL think. Things would get out of hand with that line of thinking. Honestly, if GL does or does not hate fanfics who here does it effect? No one.

 

Robin Hobb is one of the better fantasy writers out there; I read her "Liveship Traders" series a few years ago and it was very good. Sadly, she's not alone in the Fanfic Must Die category - I've seen Holly Lisle rant about it too, though not to this extent.

To me, fanfic is pretty much flattery. Someone liked your work enough to try their hand at it. Big deal. You don't make money off it, it's all in fun... and sometimes, other people are introduced to your work *through* fanfiction.

Obviously some folks don't see it that way.

I cut my teeth on fanfic; my earliest scribbles involved Han, Luke, and Leia having wacky adventures (and I do mean wacky... I was seven). I write my own stories now, but I do think I really learned to write with fanfic.

If Lucas is into the fanfilm aspect, then there's not really much he can say against fanfic - I consider them to be very similar in all respects except that one is visual and one is written. I know if he came right out and said "Fanfic is EVIL, don't write about my chars!" it might give me pause, if only because I'd feel guilty playing in his universe if he doesn't want us to.

But then I imagine I'd get over it.

Hey, we rabid fans need something to sustain us between the movies and shows and profic launches, don't we? Fanfic sort of fills a gap. It keeps our interest up and the discussion going.

I think finding that someone has fanfic'd you is a sign that you've made it in the movie/novel industry - kind of like how someone in the music industry has made it if Weird Al parodies them.

That said, I don't think Lucas hates fanfic. It serves its purpose and keeps us out there yammering for more Star Wars.

 

I've read all of Robin Hobbs books and loved them, as a writer, she is fantastic.

However, on this matter I have to disagree with her. In fact, I myself have written a little fanfiction about her own works, lol. I have never published them, or shown anyone, and I probably never will, they are my own way of expressing my love of the series and her characters. As is with SW Fanfiction, or any other fanfiction for that matter. All writers are influenced by some outside force, and all have to start somewhere, fanfiction is just what that is.

 

Sorry DarthBreezy et al; I should have put "Opinion rant" instead, because that's what that small part was, MHO about slash. The rest of what I wrote I based on logic and rationalism, but the part you quoted was just my own feeling about the subject.

Sorry again if I made anybody mad. *Goes back to blushing*

 

I would just love to add my two cents to this debate and say that it is possible for a person to not only interpret differently from the author, but to have multiple interpretations at the same time.

No interpretation is set in stone. Not even the author's.

This point is directed particularly at Hobb's "nebulous" discussion. So what if someone wants to interpret that scene? I know I can reinterpret it for myself if I so choose, just like I am responding to her article (uh, no, rant.)It's not the mystery that is pierced, only that possiblities are opened.

And honestly, if an author can't deal with a little veil-puncturing anyway, she isn't worth the effort.

See? Two different views in two sentences. [alec] It can be done.[/alec]

I'm biased, though, as I've always had vague contempt for Hobb. I admit to being an elitist reader, choosing to call what I read 'speculative fiction' or 'science fiction' instead of mere driveling 'fantasy'.

But still, I respect her right to hoard her own creations. 'Ware that when I choose to write, though, you can be damn well assured that ff.net will be full of it (one can hope).

I just wish she would not disparage my and other friends of mine's names. Just because someone doesn't write fror profit doesn't mean they don't work at it. Or consider the source material (also a ridiculous claim of Hobb's. FF writers know more about the characters sometimes than the authors do, because they relate to that character or have the time to sort them all out. It's a question of priorities, and that isn't a slander to the author either, who might have different goals and priorities and calls on time).

Finally, sometimes fic can be a great addition to profic. I know that reading Tolkien and then going on to read sonorous Rohirrim chants and Gondorian history that Tolkien did not have enough time in his short writing life to begin is gratifying. These people are fulfilling in their own way some of Tolkien's goal. I don't mean that in a patronizing way, either, it's just that they are filling in spaces and being creative and I appreciate the work that goes in to keeping it true. They follow the spirit, and what writer can ask for more devotion to his world than that? It's not flattering, per se, it's fulfilling.

So lay off, Hobb, and stop judging me and my friends on the crap that you find on purpose.

Go read Wicked, Guy Gavriel Kay (the man who helped edit the Silmarillion and now uses many tolkienish ideals in his own excellent works), even Wide Sargasso Sea.

These all use the frameworks of another mind to express something.

Don't judge them merely on what they qualify as, that's narrow-minded.

And we all know authors and writers have no excuse to be narrow-minded.



EDIT: Oh, and to answer a question:

TONS. Seriously, it was like the hugest thing on ff.net ever even without the movies. HP is really visual and intimate (to us young 'uns, anyway) so fic is pretty easy to do. Though there's not many 'missing scenes' to uncover.

 

George isn't that fond of fan fiction from what I've heard, but he does allow it more or less and for that I'm grateful.

As for Robin Hobb, I would say this. I have read many a work of fan fiction that was written at a much higher quality than some of the proffesional novels that I have read. Fan fiction writers are some of the pickiest, most detail oriented people that I have ever met when it comes to how and what they write. There is bad fan fiction. This is also bad proffesionsal fiction.

If you don't like people playing with your characters, I can understand that. I can very much understand getting highly possesive of the characters that you created. But maybe you should give fan fiction a chance, you might be surprised.

One last point about fan fiction, as it applies to taking money away from a particular fandom. That is so not true. I can think of at least four or so fandoms that I've gotten into, specifically because I've read fan fiction in that fandom. And by that I mean I read the fan fiction first, and then got so interested in the fandom that I went and read the official novels. It's free advertisment.

 

On another note, I attended a panel on this very subject (fanfiction - flattery or theft) at Dragoncon last year and one author was highly miffed because when you do a google search on her characters, the fanfiction shows up first. Another author was told by her attorney that if she didn't go after the fanficcers, she could lose her copyright to her own characters.

There are many sides to this...

 

Her attorney needs to look at copyright laws... that's a load of crap. And yes, I have had classes in copyright law, especially as it pertains to art - he's full of it. Fan fiction is copyright infringement, but there's just no money on going after it for anyone involved - however, if a person were seeking monetary gain from it, you can bet that they'd be slapped with a cease and desist PDQ.

 

I agree Breezy that her attorney was out of line but the author was still unhappy about it - just the threat was enough to make her think about going after the fanficcers (I don't believe that she did so due to costs). Don't forget that most authors don't make a lot of money. Rowling is a huge exception. So any loss of income is something to be considered.

 

DarthBreezy wrote: Her attorney needs to look at copyright laws... that's a load of crap.

He's a lawyer, what can you expect; he wants to make money.

And yes, I have had classes in copyright law, especially as it pertains to art - he's full of it. Fan fiction is copyright infringement, but there's just no money on going after it for anyone involved - however, if a person were seeking monetary gain from it, you can bet that they'd be slapped with a cease and desist PDQ.

There is an exception to this; the recent (last 20 years or so) abuse of the Civil Courts. If the author really wanted to, s/he could slap a Civil lawsuit on fan ficcers, claiming they were taking away his/her profit and making them poor, blah, blah, blah... and then you can bet some tyrant in a black robe would rule in the author's favor... especially since the author and publisher could no doubt hire the best lawyers. It all comes down to what the judge 'thinks' copyright law should say. Judges have the evil habit of interpretting pretty straight forward laws into whatever they feel like. Making it; everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others, like Animal Farm.

Under the literal wording of copyright law, no fan fic is infringing on copyright because 1) it doesn't claim to be a work of the author and 2) it's not for profit. According to the literal copyright law, that's it, violate one or both and you infringe, don't violate it, and you don't infringe, but tyrants in black robes have a way of scaring the peasants (read us) into believing whatever the lawyers want us to believe.