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PT What if George Lucas went with his original idea of a 12 year old Anakin in TPM?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    To answer the OP, I don't think 9 or 12 years old would not make much difference to me.

    Because aside from some uneven acting, kid Anakin has other problems.

    The first is obvious, having to recast one of the major characters.

    Second, logical problems.
    Why bring a 9-year old kid to a war-zone? Qui-Gon only wants him to hide and stay safe. So leave him on Coruscant.
    Nothing is established that shows that wasn't possible. But the plot needs Anakin to be there and so he is.
    This is a contrivance and some amount of that is there in all SW films but if you do too much of it, like here, then my suspension of disbelief is gone.

    Anakin's skill set. He is an ace pilot and also a tech-wiz and can build and seemingly program a protocol droid. At age nine. And he is also a slave so he does he have a lot of free time to do this?
    People complained that Rey in TFA has too large a skill-set. But she is at least twice as old as Anakin.

    Other problems isn't really in TPM but the other two films and that is about relationships.

    Anakin and Obi-Wan. This is a very important one as the conclusion of the PT has these two best friends, now bitter enemies, trying to kill each other. But in TPM there is no real relationship there. They meet and that is about it.

    Anakin and Padme. Their romance is also crucial and the fear of loosing Padme is the linchpin that Anakin's turn to the dark side hinges on. In TPM they do a bit more than meet but there is no romance there given the ages of the two of them.

    This had the problem, to me, that AotC had to rush both of these things.
    The friendship was developed off-screen and when we start the film, it is already showing signs of breaking up.
    The romance is there on-screen but to me it came across as forced, not helped by the dialogue and the lack of chemistry between the two actors. That Anakin has spent ten years constantly thinking about Padme when he spent a few days with her when he was nine. That seemed a bit unhealthy and also somewhat creepy.

    I understand why Lucas did this, to make the separation from the mother a big thing, something that would scar young Anakin.
    I get that and that at that age why it would do the most damage. But this leads to another problem.
    Could the Jedi not realize this? To see that Anakin was worried about his mother, who is a slave on a world run by gangsters.
    That he misses her and that fear is there. That maybe the Jedi should perhaps do something?
    Free her from slavery and let Anakin know so he can stop worrying about that.
    Or allow the occasional contact so he can grow out of his attachment normally.
    Or Padme, she cared about Anakin and she knows Shmi and owes her a debt and she would know that Anakin worried about his mother, who was still a slave. Why did she do nothing?
    Again this is not a problem in TPM but it does become a problem in AotC, at leats to me. Both the Jedi and Padme come across as uncaring and cold, which I doubt was the intention.

    Given these drawbacks, to me, the benefits of young Anakin did not outweigh them.
    I think an older Anakin could have worked just as well if not better.
    Do more with Owen and Beru, spend more time with the important relationships.

    Bye for now.
    Mr "Insert-Name-Here"
     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I would agree that anyone is capable of anything, given the right circumstances. But I think people are more susceptible to doing certain things based on their childhood experiences. I think it was important to Lucas to show that every evil person was once an innocent child, and the way they turned out as adults almost always has a lot to do with how they grew up. That's something a lot of people forget, and if they remembered it more often I think they'd have more compassion even for people that they despise with every fiber of their being.

    This kind of goes back to the debate over destiny versus free will. Everyone can ultimately choose to be a better person, but that choice can be easier or more difficult depending on the circumstances of any given person's life. Not everyone has the same privileges in life. That isn't an argument to lower our standards of right and wrong, but it is an argument for greater empathy, and perhaps a different approach to the punishment and rehabilitation of evildoers in society.

    Any version of the prequels which doesn't start with Anakin as a young child would fail to make this point nearly as strongly, if at all. It would be a completely different story, and I think it would be a story with significantly less impact.
     
  3. DarthVist

    DarthVist Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Hayden Christensen (who was 16 at the time) played a 12 year old in a Goosebumps episode which is called "Night of the Living Dummy III". The episode came out in July 20, 1997, which was about a month after filming for The Phantom Menace started taking place.

    Here's a picture of what Hayden Christensen looked like in the Goosebumps episode: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0591355/mediaviewer/rm3506777088
     
  4. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Apologies in advance if this post becomes a bit scattered. So I can see the argument and the appeal for making Anakin an older character in TPM though think that would require some significant changes to the movie and the plot to pull off how I would envision since if you're going with an older Anakin I don't really see that much benefit to only making him a little older, twelve as opposed to nine. If you're going with an older Anakin, I think you go with an Anakin in the throes of late adolescence (16-19). Instead of having him be a slave, have him be part of a family moisture farm business but longing to get out and explore the galaxy (echoes of Luke). Have Obi-Wan be the one who finds him and insists on training him against Yoda's advice (which means no need for Qui-Gon) and have Owen resent Obi-Wan for being the one to take Anakin away. Perhaps even have the Clone Wars already raging so Owen has a legitimate fear that Anakin will be taken away to his death fighting in the Clone Wars. Something like that could conform very well to the details we get in ANH in my opinion. So I think the greatest virtue of an older Anakin plot in the way I describe would have been continuity with ANH.

    However, to me, there would also be things lost with that approach. To me, Qui-Gon is an awesome character who enriches the Star Wars universe, and I do get a lot out of seeing his relationships with Obi-Wan and Anakin, which I think would all be lost with an older Anakin plot like I described. There's also something to me meaningful in the fact that Obi-Wan initially has doubts about training Anakin and is quite hostile to the idea and even distrustful of Anakin himself since that is something that can build a wedge between them early and give Anakin cause to doubt Obi-Wan's loyalty and attitude toward him throughout the PT. It's something that can always linger in the back of his mind as a sort of nagging doubt or question.

    Anakin being nine and growing up without a father also to me makes it very believable that he would crave paternal connections and seek out father figures like first Qui-Gon and then Obi-Wan and Palpatine. I think that need for approval and affection from father figures remains an essential part of Anakin throughout the PT with Obi-Wan emerging as a father figure whose approval and affection Anakin wants but often seems quite unsure whether he has and Palpatine stepping in to offer that seemingly unconditional approval and affection Anakin craved that is, of course, not really about what is best for Anakin but about drawing Anakin ever closer to the Dark Side. So, that's a compelling psychological aspect of Anakin and the PT in general that I think would have been lost if Anakin hadn't started out in the PT young as he did.

    Anakin's being nine also meant to me that his separation from his mother could be more obviously painful and traumatic. I really think Anakin's inability to accept the separation from his mother and arguably accept change in general (remember Shmi's advice to him about how he can't stop change any more than he can stop Tatooine's suns from setting; Anakin never learns this crucial lesson and that contributes to his tragic downfall) is more poignant and relatable to the audience because he is such a little boy at the time. It's very believable for a little boy of that age to be so attached to and so dependent upon his mother. This separation from his mother causes Anakin to fixate on this need for a mother figure and seek out a replacement mother figure in Padme. So, again, to me these compelling psychological aspects of Anakin's character, Anakin's fall, and the PT in general are rooted in having Anakin begin the PT as a young boy as opposed to an adolescent young man.

    In both those senses, I think we could say that having a young Anakin in TPM was essential to the story of Anakin's downfall that Lucas had decided to tell. That to me doesn't mean it was the only way to tell the story of Anakin's downfall but to me it was certainly a moving and effective way to do it with some fascinatingly Freudian psychological aspects to it.

    On a purely personal note, I'll also say that I like having a young Anakin who doesn't yet have the temper of adolescence. To me, it's really nice to see him as a selfless, good-natured little boy because I see enough of his tempestuousness once he hits adolescence in AOTC. Personally, I don't need to movies featuring an AOTC type Anakin. To me, having an Anakin who is wrestling with fear of loss and an inability to accept loss (which are I think the biggest reasons why Anakin falls in ROTS, and why I do find him a very tragically relatable character) is enough foreshadowing of the Dark path he'll ultimately tread especially given Yoda's comments about fear leading to anger and anger to hate and hate finally to suffering. I think Lucas really did want to emphasize that the fear of loss and the inability to accept loss more than anger or any other emotion was the start of the path to the Dark Side, so I feel that was done effectively in TPM by making Anakin a young boy who doesn't really show a quick temper and seems to just have very understandable fears especially considering his background.

    Apologies again if some of this got rambling. Hopefully it makes some sense outside of my own head...
     
  5. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Sebastian Shaw as a younger man in The Spy in Black (1939)
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    That could work!
     
  7. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    He's a very handsome young man, but matching the young Anakin actor to Sebastian Shaw wasn't Lucas's priority and I don't remember the general viewing public caring about it one iota. Child Anakin was cast for a resemblance to Mark Hamill and teenage Anakin was cast for a plausible enough resemblance to Jake Lloyd while also being reminiscent of James Dean. These were much more important considerations for Lucas than whether or not they resembled an actor whose real face was only on screen for a few seconds.

    Most people vividly remembered what Vader looked like when he was unmasked, but due to the make-up and prosthetics that could have been almost anybody. In my experience, most people didn't have a strong attachment to what Anakin looked like as a healed ghost. The hardcore fans did, but not most people. It was just an old guy who smiled. Among the wider public, there's now a much stronger attachment to the Hayden ghost than there ever was to the Shaw ghost, because the Hayden ghost visibly represents a version of the character people have grown attached to over the course of two films and a beloved animated series. That's the most iconic representation of Anakin Skywalker now, like it or not.
     
  8. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Someone's attachment to Shaw might depend on how hard they tried to hunt down an original Anakin ROTJ action figure and his coin.
     
  9. wobbits

    wobbits Force Ghost star 4

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    Apr 12, 2017
    =D==D==D==D=

    I grew up with the OT and the bolded is exactly how I feel about Shaw. Watching ROTJ my vested interest was in Luke, not a guy covered in makeup who I had no familiarity with as a character. There was zero emotional attachment for me to Shaw. For me, Hayden IS Anakin.
     
  10. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 12, 2017
    Less is more for me. Shaw is Anakin for me because he got so little screen time to screw up the role. Or was that the director screwing up the role...
     
  11. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Exactly. Asking me to sympathize with Anakin without the PT is asking me to sympathize with Kylo in the ST. I just dont. I sympathized with Luke and Luke losing his father and then Luke getting to see his father as a ghost, but I couldn't care less about Anakin as a character except for his, in 1983, vague backstory.

    The PT, plus the books, Dark Horse Comics, Clone Wars shows, mini-comics, etc. made Anakin a fully realized character with emotions, fears, wants, interests, etc. Hayden Christensen is always the image that comes to mind in the same way casting Sebastian Stan for a Luke movie won't change Mark Hamill as the image of Luke Skywalker.

    Both Hamill and Christensen were the actors chosen for the characters to be fully realized.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  12. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Before the Prequels, the audience did not know if the story would be told through Anakin. The Prequels could have shown Anakin only from a distance. Ben Kenobi and Qui Gon and Padme could have been the primary tellers (through their eyes).

    I would have preferred Anakin to stay at a distance.

    I cannot identify with Anakin's dialogue. But I have always identified with Luke's dialogue. So, the match from son to father was awkward as well. But the match from Sebastian Shaw to Luke has never been awkward.

    I would have preferred an Anakin who slowly chooses to become Darth Vader, slowly with intermediate steps. Somewhere under that metal suit was a man who used to be Luke's father.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  13. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I agree with the highlighted. As an example, I showed my 6-9 year old kids the six episode saga-with spinoffs in their places-for the first time this year (I'm holding off for the ST until December, so it's fresh in their minds for TROS). I went from I-VI in chronological order, and they accepted and were captivated by the overall progression of the story as a whole, and actually really seemed to see Anakin as the main part of all of it. And when they saw young Anakin in ROTJ, I was amazed to see how much it made PERFECT SENSE to them that Luke sees his father as young Anakin. I asked them how they felt about it, and they all said it made sense cos "that's how Anakin was before he turned to the Darkside, and now he's good again like before." It was amazing to see how someone who looked at it more simply and subjectively, who didn't have expectations, or something different to draw on before, to have Luke seeing young Anakin make perfect sense to them, cos of how they saw Anakin's story arc play out over six episodes.

    That was a proud father moment for me!! [:D]
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  14. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Sebastian Shaw ghost all the way for me. It works so much better in my opinion.
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, but Lucas wouldn't look at sixteen year old actors to play a twelve year old Anakin. He would have cast an actor between eleven and thirteen and thus Hayden would have been left out in the cold. Jake Lloyd was eight when he filmed his scenes in 1997 and nine for the re-shoots. When he cast Hayden, he was about twenty, roughly the same age that Anakin was supposed to be. Lucas had chosen to adhere more closely to the ages for Anakin, than he had with Luke and Leia.

    Most people suspected that the point of view would be Anakin's, since from the start of the PT, he said that the films would be told from his viewpoint.

    Anakin's situation is understandable if you've ever lost someone who meant a lot to you. I could understand his fear, anger and frustration due to my stepfather's terminal illness, eleven years before AOTC came out. If you've experienced feelings like that, it is easy to understand why it is hard for him to let go.

    He doesn't turn right away. It's a slow build that starts with his separation from his mother that grows worse when he loses her and continues to worsen when he is going to lose Padme. He does one bad thing when he kills the Tusken Raiders and has moments of rage whenever his attachments are threatened, leading to Dooku's cold blooded murder. And then he has to make the final choice in Palpatine's office.
     
  16. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    When I look at Anakin's dialogue throughout the Prequels, the seeds for him turning are there from the very beginning. Indeed, the Jedi Council initially did not want to accept Anakin in Episode I but Qui-Gon Jinn insisted.
     
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Right. That was the point of the PT, to explain why he would turn. When you look at Luke's journey, you see those seeds are there as well, when Yoda tells Luke that he is too old to begin the training. And when you see how attachment and the fear of losing those attachments affects people, then you can understand how a good person can go bad. Remember that Luke killing Vader would have turned him as well. It would have been even quicker than what you perceive Anakin's turn to be.
     
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  18. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    I think Anakin's turn needs to be viewed stereoscopically. It's a gradual build that culminates in a rapid series of quick, rash, emotionally-based reactions in which he had almost no time to think it over, and in which he continues to abruptly fall incrementally further and further into the complex snare orchestrated by Palpatine.

    The prolonged exposition of Anakin's nature and circumstances is the set up which explains the relatively quick fall.

    It's very much like building up a tower then demolishing it.

    And that is how I feel turning an otherwise good person to the dark side works. I'm not sure how one slowly becomes a Sith. In most cases I would imagine you can't propose the idea to them and then give them time to mull it over. Seems like kind of a "now or never" kind of thing.
    You have to manipulate their passions, weaknesses and strengths and when the time is right, maneuver them into a situation in which they have to make a sudden decision.
    I would be interested to see how Sidious lured Dooku to the dark side. I'm sure it was much different than how he worked Anakin, but I'd guess most of the basic elements were there.


    Interesting. I identify or relate with Anakin's dialogue throughout the PT astoundingly, almost viscerally so. And while I grew up with Luke as a role model and identify greatly with him, both in life story and personality, I feel his dialogue is a bit more stylized. Anakin's is too, of course, but he feels more like a person you could meet on the street in real life, whereas Luke feels a bit more fantastical. Not in a bad way, though ;)

    The funny thing is, Luke feels like a throwback to the PT era, while Anakin seems to have one foot in the OT era. Sort of like the two dots in the Yin/Yang.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  19. Justus_Cade

    Justus_Cade Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    May 31, 2002
    I have personally thought that Obi-Wan should have been Qui-Gon's age, and Anakin Obi's age in TPM. Just let us jump into the action, get the impression these guys are actually friends and care for each other, and their ages would better align with the OT.

    Anakin's back story could be filled in while the films progress, mention his mom here and there. Just my opinion.
     
  20. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    I view Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine as 1000x worse than Nazi Germany leaders. They were introduced as war criminals. I don't believe we were supposed to step into Anakin's shoes to identify with him. That is why he should have been kept at a distance and the Prequels told through other characters.
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    The original Star Wars trilogy literally ends with him being redeemed and smiling warmly at his son from Force ghost Heaven.

    I can't imagine anything more boring than an entire prequel trilogy about a really bad dude who we barely interact with who eventually turns into an even worse dude. What's the point of that story?

    Evil people are human, you know.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  22. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I honestly never understood why Luke killing Vader would have turned Luke to the dark side. Yes he is his father, but it is war and Vader is responsible for millions of deaths and prob. millions more. I know Luke used anger during the fight but I feel he could have brought himself back. He was doing what Obi Wan and Yoda asked him to do. Obi Wan did not turn to the dark side when he killed Maul. He was doing his job as a Jedi. He is not the same as Anakin. Sorry for getting off topic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  23. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 12, 2017
    Why would a Jedi killing a mass murderer in anger turn him or her to the dark side? Great question.

     
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  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well the logic that the OT presents is fairly simple, if you give in to your hate and anger and let those feelings flow through you and thus the dark side of the Force as well and then you use it to murder. Then you turn.

    So any jedi or good Force user has to be very careful when fighting, esp a sith. If they let their anger or aggression take over during said fight, they would loose even if they strike down their opponent.
    A Jedi can kill but not in anger or hate.

    The reasoning could simply be "You can not use evil to do good."
    It will always corrupt you in the end.
    Like with the One Ring, you can not use it for benevolent purposes. It will twist and corrupt any who try to use it.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Because vengeful murder is wrong regardless of who you do it to?

    Maybe this is something you either get or you don't. But it's pretty central to this movie series.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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