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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT What if George Lucas went with his original idea of a 12 year old Anakin in TPM?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    But stopping a mass murderer is more important than keeping anger in check. If a mass murderer is supported by infrastructure, there will be anger.

     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't think it's ever right to murder someone.
     
  3. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Anger may be viewed as a weakness to the Jedi. However, anger is still a natural emotion. If someone tries to suppress their anger, the emotion will likely still find another outlet. The Jedi use self-discipline to overcome immediate, visceral reactions including anger. Luke showed weaknesses in the throne room scene and part of that was exhibiting anger.

    However, there was a greater problem of Emperor Palpatine tempting Luke in the throne room. Palpatine tempted Luke to fall into anger to lash out uncontrollably at his father while he and the rebellion were locked up in the war against the second deathstar. My view is that Palpatine's tempting and taunting of Luke went steps further: Emperor Palpatine actually wanted Luke to feel overcome with the deeper, long-term emotion of *shame*. Exhibiting flashes of anger in a moment of fury may be temporary. However, the shame associated with such failings can be much more damaging and long-term and cyclical. Emperor Palpatine wanted Luke to internalize his weakness in controlling anger against his father and then recognize his anger as a source for power to take his (biological) father's place as his apprentice under the Rule of Two (consistent with the Prequels).

    In the ROTJ throne room scene, we learn to identify Emperor Palpatine as the ultimate cancer infecting the galaxy. Palpatine seduced young Anakin and led him down the road to the darkside. Although father and son have physically scarred each other during ESB and ROTJ, both father and son now come to recognize Palpatine as the ultimate source of evil. Anakin, in his final damaged state, throws Palpatine down the elevator shaft. Anakin's action of killing Emperor Palpatine as the ultimate source of evil under the Sith Rule of Two was sufficient for him to become redeemed. We then see that Anakin has become one with the force.

    Anakin Skywalker's redemption was complicated to me. However, I view it in terms of Vader allowing Luke to live and killing Emperor Palpatine as the ultimate source of evil under the Sith Rule of Two. Anakin died from his wounds after Luke removed his helmet. Luke was trying to evacuate Anakin until Anakin could go no further and asked Luke to remove his helmet so he could gaze at his son with his "own eyes." (if I remember that right).

    The Prequel films are consistent with Palpatine being the ultimate source of evil. We do not see Palpatine become one with the living force. We are not supposed to feel compassion for the Emperor. In the throne room scene, we are supposed to transfer our feelings about Vader to the Emperor. Palpatine exerted his will through Vader. However, young Anakin made some bad choices in the Prequels that allowed Palpatine to overshadow his will.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    To understand the dark side, one must learn about the nature of it.


    "He's still weak. He's gotta be strengthened. And Yoda's the one to do it. That's his job. Now, he has to go and explore a cave, because he's in training and this is what Yoda tells him to go. And there's a seriousness to Yoda's face here because he knows what's going to happen because actually he's setting it up, what's going to happen in the cave, because Luke is going to have to face himself. "

    --Irvin Kershner, TESB Commentary.

    "Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.


    It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] suggest that although one can’t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

    --Star Wars-The Empire Strikes Back: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.


    "Most of this sequence with Luke really had to do with making him angry and to try to tempt him to become angry and Luke fighting that temptation. Which obviously eventually he does and eventually again he doesn’t. But that’s the real tension in this whole scene is “Will he become angry enough to try to attack the Emperor?” I mean what the Emperor wants basically is from him to kill his father so he can take his place, which is the same thing his father is trying to get him to do is kill the Emperor so Vader can take the Emperor’s place."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004.

    "The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he’s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he’s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. In The Empire Strikes Back we had them confront each other and fight together. But in this film Luke has become more mature so that now he knows he shouldn’t be fighting him—that is the path to the dark side. So it’s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn’t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what’s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004.

    "In The Empire Strikes Back it’s the first time that the antagonist and protagonist actually fight each other. So that it is a very big fight and Luke now has become proficient enough to be able to face Darth Vader. So it’s a slightly one-sided sword fight where Vader has the advantage over him. Luke didn’t know that Vader was his father for the fight part, so that what was happening was he though he was fighting his bitter enemy. So he was fighting as hard as he could; he was fighting the man who killed his father; fighting the man who killed Obi-Wan Kenobi; fighting the man who would personify evil in the universe. And then as we go on into the next fight, it becomes more of an equal confrontation. In the next one, Return of the Jedi, he knew he was fighting his father. He knew that the Emperor was behind all this. And he knew the issues he was dealing with were much larger than just the sword fight. And so that sword fight really centered on the more emotional context the sword fight takes place in than the actual fight itself. That was the climax of the film rather than having it be a technological warfare, blow up the Death Star kind of thing, it was really more of a personal fight between a father and son."

    --George Lucas, “The Birth of the Lightsaber,” Star Wars: Bonus Material DVD, 2004.

    Anger may be a natural reaction, but that reaction is detrimental to being a Jedi. A Jedi doesn't suppress their anger, they simply banish it from their hearts by letting go of their anger and everything that they fear to lose. Anger is the result of reacting to fear. Anakin was afraid of losing the people that mattered to him and that fear turned to anger at not being able to protect those that he cared for. And having anger towards others can lead to hate. This is why Yoda tells both Skywalker men that the path to the dark side stems from fear. Palpatine understands this as well and knew that both men felt inferior about their skills as a Jedi. Anakin had such a strong connection to the Force, that he became arrogant with his training and didn't take it as a seriously as other Jedi had. So when he fails to save Shmi and loses to Dooku, Anakin's reaction is to push himself to become all powerful, so that he wouldn't suffer loss again. Luke, on the other hand, grew up not knowing about the Force and barely knew anything about the Jedi Order. So when he starts training in earnest on Dagobah, he has a misguided view about why he should train to be a Jedi. And his fears and anger comes from his lack of knowledge, which makes it difficult for him to grasp the teachings of Yoda. Then Luke starts to understand, but soon leaves for Bespin, because he thinks that he is ready to save his friends and face Vader. And once he has been humbled by his experience, Luke finds himself taking better care in facing Vader, but due to the burden of hiding Leia's identity and the realization that Palpatine had set them up, Luke must face himself as much as he does with his father. Luke realizes that he doesn't have the power to stop this and that in turn is why Palpatine is able to goad him into attacking him and why Vader is able to exploit his attachment to Leia. Luke has to come to accept that his emotions are a liability as well as a source of strength. He has to find the balance that his father failed to find, in order to become a Jedi.