What if the Council trusted Anakin?

However, Anakin was an orange amoung apples.

I agree. He and the current Jedi administration are bad fits for each other. Square peg in round hole and all that. I still wonder if Luke and Anakin's situations had been turned around and Luke was the slave boy ripped from mom trained in the same enviornment as Anakin, would Luke have eventually turned Dark? A sort of nature vs. nuture question....

 

Or you could go along with the Prophecy and say that no matter what happened the Prophecy is still going to be the Prophecy and Anakin's Fate has already been written.

 

Good gracious, what a bunch of bleeding hearts. He cried therefore he's a good person, just confused. Yeah, sure as he skewers the younglings. Oh but wait I see a twinkle of a tear, poor guy.

Out of all those quotes, from confused Lucas who changes his mind and his story in every interview; the truest thing he says which actually matches what he shows on screen is that; the story is about trying to get Vader back to the good boy we see on Tattoine, which never happesn. He's not a good man in ROTS and he's not a good man in ROTJ. He realizez his wrong thinking because he loves his son and therefore decides to kill his boss to protect the son... Not exactly a selfless act.

Anakin is a hyporcrit and a murderer and a power hungry monster. He gets no free pass because the Jedi ask him to spy, he was spying on them for Palps, but you guys act as if he's innocent. He killed children and then lied about it, married and lied about it, killed a defenseless man and lied about. So I guess we can also say he's a coward on top of it. Sure there is good in everyone, even Hitler and Stalin and Gacy, but does that make them good men. NO! - it makes them nuts, just like Anakin.

 

His destiny was to fulfill the prophecy but how he went about it was probably more or less up to him and his circumstances don't you think? Kind of like that philosophical tension between pre-destination and free will. I don't think he was fated to be a Sith Lord.
Does anyone know the full "text" of the prophecy? Was it ever expanded in the EU or anything? Or is it just a vaugue "There will be One who brings ballance to the Force".

 

Knight_Mical posted on 6/30/05 1:19pm

---

Good gracious, what a bunch of bleeding hearts. He cried therefore he's a good person, just confused. Yeah, sure as he skewers the younglings. Oh but wait I see a twinkle of a tear, poor guy.

Out of all those quotes, from confused Lucas who changes his mind and his story in every interview; the truest thing he says which actually matches what he shows on screen is that; the story is about trying to get Vader back to the good boy we see on Tattoine, which never happesn. He's not a good man in ROTS and he's not a good man in ROTJ. He realizez his wrong thinking because he loves his son and therefore decides to kill his boss to protect the son... Not exactly a selfless act.

Anakin is a hyporcrit and a murderer and a power hungry monster. He gets no free pass because the Jedi ask him to spy, he was spying on them for Palps, but you guys act as if he's innocent. He killed children and then lied about it, married and lied about it, killed a defenseless man and lied about. So I guess we can also say he's a coward on top of it. Sure there is good in everyone, even Hitler and Stalin and Gacy, but does that make them good men. NO! - it makes them nuts, just like Anakin.
[hr][/blockquote]

Lets at least compare the right people shall we?? Anakin was never the "Hitler" or "Stalin" of a GFFA..that would be the person he throws downt he reactor shaft in ROTJ..

:)

 

Yeah he's more like a Himmler or A Goerring...

 

I find many of the statements on this board interesting, and feel that people brought up many good points. Here's a little something that popped into my head, (and hopefully that's not because it was posted before...if so, my apologies.)
I think we should keep in mind that Anakin probably grew up hearing tales of the Jedi [ "No one can kill a Jedi" ], and then he gets the chance to become one. The reality of being a Jedi was most likely not at all how he envisioned it, yet he sought the glory he imagined from those tales. I think this might figure into Anakin's character and how he reacts to things.
I, too, felt that at least Mace was weary of Anakin, which probably helped figure into Anakin's own feeling of alienation. Anakin does have his faults, but they grew over time. I do think that it is a possibilty that if the council trusted Anakin (or appeared to trust Anakin from Anakin's point of view), he might not have turned, but the support and trust would have needed to start from the beginning. This is one of those 'if only' situations, where hindsight ends up being much better than foresight...and as I've read earlier, if enough key elements changed, then the outcome could have been very different.
[Note, I'm in no way condoning what Anakin did to the tuskins or the jedi...]

 

Yeah I see what you're saying. Only the destination is written, not the journey. But maybe the Prophecy was meant to be more then just an extinction of the Sith. Maybe it was meant to pretty much extinct the Jedi too. The Jedi are becoming too arrogant and overconfident. The Force must balance this out and restore the fundamentals again. So I don't think any action could've been taken to prevent Anakin from turning. The Force and the Prophecy already decided that.

 

The Force must balance this out and restore the fundamentals again. So I don't think any action could've been taken to prevent Anakin from turning. The Force and the Prophecy already decided that.

How are the Jedi creating imbalance in the force. Also why would the force want the galaxy in darkness, did the force want Alderaan blown up or countless of other people murdered. I thought the prophecy stated Anakin was born to bring balance to the force and that the elimination of the SITH was the answer. I didnt know the prophecy also stated the JEDI must be wiped out too.

 

That's the problem. Apparently the Prophecy was misread (as stated in Episode III) by many. The Jedi thought the Prophecy was all for them but they might not have realized that it would balance them out too. I think the imbalance the Jedi were creating was within themselves, as a whole and individually. The Force needed a sort of cleansing process to take place, but at the same time take care of those pesky Sith that were lurking around too. The Chosen One was born and fulfilled his fate as the balancer of the Force. Now, what path he took however was up to him. Anakin/Vader has a will of his own, the Force can't change that. But the destination, when everyone is happy and the Sith are destroyed, is written. The Chosen One just took his time and went to the Darkside in the meantime before he reached his destination and purpose.

 

No amount of trust could have saved anakin from himself, his fear was larger than his teachings, the teachings don't fail the student, the student fails the teachings. Maybe things would've been different if he trusted his teachers, their lessons and the jedi way, not vice versa. Their lack of trust is based on feelings they have of his future which is clouded but that is because of anakin and who he is. Anakin can never fully commit to the jedi way of life. Fear is his true master and motivator.

 

"YOU HAVE DONE THAT YOURSELF ANAKIN"

 

Unless the teachings are somehow lacking or wrong. It took the Force to create the Chosen One to fix their ways. They were perhaps blinded by their faults and it took an apoclypse for them to see it.

His was future was clouded not decided and I believe it was clouded because it was not set in stone. The future never is. It doesn't have anything to do with who Anakin is. It has to do with what Anakin must do. It is clouded because the way to the goal is up to him. The Jedi are all too human in this instance. They are suspicious of what they cannot know and control. This is why they are so schitzy towards Anakin. And that very attitude towards him shaped who he became.

Maybe Anakin cannot fully commit to the Jedi way of life because that way of life isn't the bee knees when it comes to the Force. Perhaps it is fundamentally flawed. Maybe the larger question becomes was it the will of the Force to exterminate the Jedi along with the Sith, as has been asked on other threads and in the posts above?

 

No amount of trust could have saved anakin from himself, his fear was larger than his teachings, the teachings don't fail the student, the student fails the teachings. Maybe things would've been different if he trusted his teachers, their lessons and the jedi way, not vice versa. Their lack of trust is based on feelings they have of his future which is clouded but that is because of anakin and who he is. Anakin can never fully commit to the jedi way of life. Fear is his true master and motivator

The Jedi don't trust Anakin because he doesn't deserve their trust, he's been lieing for years. They sense his deceit and are reacting to it. Face it the guy hasn't been a Jedi since he was 19 when he murdered children and covered it up and secretly married. That what's so sickening about his high and mighty attitude about the council not following the code, when he never has followed the code himself.

The Jedi aren't perfect but they arent the problem either. Anakin is using them and Palptine is using him. If anything the Jedi have been too trusting and almost niave throughout his apprenticeship.

 

That what's so sickening about his high and mighty attitude about the council not following the code, when he never has followed the code himself.
couldn't agree more!

anakin can't see through the lies he has created for himself to justify his actions. there's nothing genuine about anakin's motivations.

as obi wan points out when confronting anakin on one of his lies: "but it's what you wanted".

 

Mu Tron you sound a lot like palpatine, and the force wanting the jedi to be destroyed is another very suspect theory, that's all I'll say on the matter. The future is clouded because his was and it was most certainly because it wasn't purely certain. But I'm sure when they took obi wan in as a child they didn't get the same cloud. Why is that?

 

^Again, yes, unless the code was somehow flawed.

 

There is nothing in the PT to indicate that the code was flawed, and nothing in the OT that suggests it either. Now if it relates to marriage, then perhaps changes could be made and it could be allowed but you have to create the same discipline around it, a dicipline that anakin didn't possess.

 

In the films, nothing suggests that the Code was flawed. The only change comes from how Luke and Leia are raised, which leads into Luke's training. Yoda is even hesitant to train Luke, because the Code forebids training at such as late age. And the hesitation comes from Luke being too rigid as he is now, then he would be as a child trained from birth.

Hell, it's not even Anakin that really destroys the Jedi, but the Sith. Darth Sidious used the Clone Wars and Order 66 to take out the Jedi. All Anakin did was help empty out the Temple and in the eu, kill a few stragglers. So in reality, the Force couldn't have created Anakin to wipe out the Jedi. The Sith, the Droid Army and the Clone Army were already taking care of that.

In the novelization and the eu, it's suggested that the reason the Prophecy was misread, was that it never said if Anakin had to be a Jedi when he destroyed the Sith. Instead, he was a Sith Lord at the time who returned from the Dark Side to save his son.

 

I only said such a theory was present. I didn't say I agreed with it. In it's favor is exhibit A - the Jedi are all destroyed. The question is: Was it the will of the Force. That I don't know.


[quote-Nihilist]There is nothing in the PT to indicate that the code was flawed, and nothing in the OT that suggests it either. Now if it relates to marriage, then perhaps changes could be made and it could be allowed but you have to create the same discipline around it, a dicipline that anakin didn't possess.[/quote]


In the PT - Qui Gon seems to only follow the code when it suits him, suggesting to me it is flawed. Dooku left the Order due to the flaws of the code, or at least in the doings of the order.

Not to go EU - but Luke's order is radically different from the PT Jedi - so I've heard.

 

C'mon - that is a narrow interpretation don't you think? I mean he did aid in saving Palpatine's life when Mace was going to execute him. One could argue without Anakin, the Jedi would never had been wiped out. All I'm saying is that one moment he took Mace's arm off set in motion the rest of the contingenices that resulted in the destruction and elimination of the Jedi. All from Anakin's hand.

Again was it the will of the Force? I don't know.

 

I agree with what you're saying here, however, I think Anakin believed that the masters couldn't possibly be flawed...if the masters weren't perfect, then how could they expect the rest of the Jedi to be? Once it became apparent to him that they were "just as human" (for lack of a better phrase coming to mind at the moment) as he, his own confidence and trust in the council started to wane. He no longer could rely on his preconceptions of everything around him. I think he used the council's bending of the code to start to justify what he did (in his point of view), when deep down, he didn't want to justify anything. He needed to keep doubting his own actions...he needed an anchor, but he kept destroying it.
Does any of this excuse his actions? No. Anakin was going through a lot of turmoil, but he felt he was doing what he had to, and his doubt of the council didn't help.
He didn't deal very well with the council getting knocked off the pedestal in his mind.

This can happen in real life, when a person experiences something in a new light...the person suddenly realizes that someone or something is not who or what he/she thought the person or thing was. And everybody deals with it differently.

 

Yes, it does make one wonder...what was the will of the force in this instance. If the will was for most of the Jedi to be wiped out, then one can also argue that even had Anakin never shown up, Palps might have killed Mace anyway, and Palps would have still made order66. If Anakin was the one destined to destroy the Sith, Mace would not have been able to destroy Palpatine anyway.

 

This thread should've been the "What If" thread

 

You've failed your highness, I'm a JEDI like my father before me.-Luke-ROTJ

Doesn't sound like flawed teachings, and I don't know what changes luke implements in the EU but I have a feeling they're not very drastic. The only thing that I think could've been instituted was the right to be married and again, it would require you be in union without the dangerous type of attachment that anakin was a slave to.

Qui gon was a jedi, he had some views that were his own(he didn't feel he should be a member of the council because he was following the force's will)but he was a very clearly a jedi. Qui gon had some of his own opinions but he followed the teachings, anakin can't even do that. There is no way you can compare anakin's disregard for his teachings and weakness with qui gon's ways. Would anyone mistake qui gon for a sith? Dooku was another one who couldn't manage the jedi ways, he's a failed jedi, he was selfish and left for power and the false promises of palpatine.

Anakin knew everytime he was going against the code but his fear and anger were larger than his discipline, he failed and paid the price, but he also came back to reclaim the prophecy as the chosen one. I don't think we're supposed to assume the jedi were to be destroyed if vader had to be jedi like again to redeem himself, it just doesn't make sense and I'm sure lucas doesn't intend that.