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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT what is so great about ESB ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by cantthinkofone, Dec 15, 2021.

  1. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    You are right about this. It may not have been the first, but considering how feel good ANH was no one expected the sequel to be so dark. Nowadays it is expected.
     
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  2. Canadian Jedi Master 75

    Canadian Jedi Master 75 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Aug 19, 2023
    Wouldn't the ending of Halloween from 1978 count as the bad guys winning be compared to Empire Strikes Back? In the end of that film we see Michael Myers getting away after his killings and getting shot six times.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2024
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  3. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Nah, it was just a sequel hook
     
  4. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    I feel like it special because it’s simultaneously one of the most ambitious of the films but also undoubtedly the “cleanest” from concept to execution, likely because you’ve got Lucas in his most ideal spot as a creator (the “auteur producer”), a great director Lucas picked likely in part because he knew he would get good pushback from him when he needed it, and another very good creator as the writer who was also allowed agency to impact the final product on a concept level as well.

    All this meant that almost every creative decision they made, from the core principles and goals of the film to the tiny little whims of detail, got perfectly executed - which actually is very rare for Star Wars, since there’s usually at least one or two things that aren’t up to snuff and get hidden by how ambitious and fascinating the rest of the material is.

    It’s arguably the best example of how much “high art” a still almost wholly collaborative creative process can make a film, in contrast with the “auteur directors only” ethos that gets mistakenly raised up as the only way to do it.
     
  5. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    Empire also looked much more big budget than SW. And the music was almost all new, rare for a sequel.
     
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  6. Canadian Jedi Master 75

    Canadian Jedi Master 75 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Aug 19, 2023
    John Carpenter and Debra Hill have said they never intended for the ending of Halloween to setup a sequel. That only happened because it was very popular with it's box office numbers.

    George Lucas always planned for Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi to be made.
     
  7. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    Vader would have been blown up at the end had they intended no sequels.
     
  8. Canadian Jedi Master 75

    Canadian Jedi Master 75 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Aug 19, 2023
    Like I said before, George Lucas had always intended to make Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi after A New Hope.

    There was never any thoughts of making a sequel to Halloween 1978, even though the ending made it look that way.
     
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  9. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    That's because Michael Meyers is eternal.
     
  10. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    In a way, ESB is Lucas actually getting what he wanted from ANH on a production level, with ANH sort of being a magnificently successful test run of the concept. And he definitely gave the sequel a total (as the kids say) “glow up.”

    He sees the box office receipts from the first movie, and his thought process went the reverse of both most auteurs (retain or seize even more control) and producers (cut the budget, use the same formula, guarantee profit).

    He wanted an upgrade at director and writer over even himself, so he actually hired talented people - even his own teacher - to do that, and deployed his now experienced production staff and special effects team to immediately try and one-up his own ground-breaking movie. He nabbed Williams for even more masterwork, and embraced a storyline that dove deep and created a whole new genre.

    Which sort of leads to the weird thing for me regarding the OT films; I tend to rank them personally ROTJ, ESB, and ANH, while believing the actual quality goes ESB, ROTJ, then ANH. What ESB made Star Wars become was so much more than the already impressive thing it was before that I know I have trouble really assessing ANH’s true quality.
     
  11. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    ROTJ is my least favorite OT film, by far. The Luke/Emperor scenes were great, but a lot of the music and ideas seemed rehashed (another Death Star, lines repeated, etc) And I don't like Ewoks, lol. But there is a lot of greatness in ROTJ, but some cringeworthy stuff too, which was new to me for SW.
     
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Yes Lucas had plans and ideas for more films but I do not think he had ESB and RotJ exactly in mind as the sequels.

    A very early idea was for SW to be 12 loosely connected films, sort of like the Bond series. And Lucas would direct the first one and then other directors could come in and do a film and then Lucas would, maybe, direct the last one.

    Before Star Wars came out, Lucas did not have high hopes that it would be a BO smash. I think he said that a BO comparable to 2001 was out of the question and he hoped for something like Planet of the Apes numbers.

    So the first film does well enough to get a sequel but the budget for that sequel would have to be lower.
    He told Alan D Foster to write two drafts/stories that could be turned into low budget sequels to the first film. One of those became the novel, "Splinter of the Minds Eye." And it is on a smaller scale. Han is not in it, most of the story takes place on a misty, swamp planet. Vader is in it but no father revelation.

    When Star Wars broke all kinds of BO records, Lucas realized that not only could he do more films but they could have a higher budget as well.
    So I think his plans changed dramatically.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2024
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  13. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 14, 2018
    Clearly Lucas wanted to do sequels even before SW 1977 came out. He was talking to Alan Dean Foster in 1975, around the time of the third draft, about doing two follow-up movies plus one prequel film. The second movie in the trilogy would be "Gone with the Wind in Outer Space" and feature a Han/Leia/Luke love triangle, and the third would be "the story of the Skywalker family" and the "downfall of the Empire".

    Neither of these matches with the plot of Splinter of the Mind's Eye - Han isn't even in that book, and it doesn't feature any revelations about the Skywalker family, much less the "downfall of the Empire". So evidently Lucas had different plans for what he could do for sequels. If SW was a box-office success, he could make a full trilogy of movies plus maybe a prequel film. But if it flopped, the most he could realistically hope for was a low-budget TV movie based on Splinter.

    Then, when SW came out and had wild success beyond anything he'd imagined, Lucas arguably dreamed too big, and wasn't sure how many sequels he would end up doing. Which resulted in things like dropping hints toward a "lost sister" plotline in ESB, and then having to resolve that awkwardly with the retcon of Leia's heritage in ROTJ once he decided to make just one trilogy for the moment.
     
  14. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Yes, provided that ANH would not be a box office flop. And that was a huge "if". Have you seen Empire of Dreams? At some point practically everybody involved had given up hope the movie would even be a modest hit. Lucas and the actors were pretty sure it would be a total disaster. Ford and Hamill joked about how ridiculous their characters were. R2 didn't function in Tunisia, Lucas had to fight crew members who couldn't do their job properly due to UK unions. There were many more problems. Wasn't Lucas even hospitalized for nervous breakdown? Things did NOT go well at all.
    I think the turning point was a more or less final cut screening with Williams' soundtrack and edited the right way. Everyone was amazed by the outcome from the supposedly lousy material they had shot. Even then, there was no way of being sure audiences would buy the premise, even had the movie itself been flawless.
    But there is no way ESB would have happened without the HUGE success of ANH. The "sequel" would have been limited to one single novel, Splinter.
    LOL! I'm pretty sure John Carpenter had not intended to make him that. As common for Carpenter, all he gave us was an open ending, open to interpretation.
    All those sequels in the 2000s and 2010 are absurd, even worse than what they did to Freddy in the sequels. He was no longer a villain or monster but some kind of immortal hero. Ludicrous! I tried watching the first of the Halloween reboots, and just couldn't. I found it completely unwatchable, I'd rather watch the original over again, or the original sequels. While Halloween 2 was pretty lame, III (AKA Season of the Witch) was kind of interesting and very different. Androids in a horror movie? Supernatural magic masks that kill? Certainly not just a "more of the same" type situation. Oh, and the soundtrack is even better than the original's IMO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2024
  15. Canadian Jedi Master 75

    Canadian Jedi Master 75 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Aug 19, 2023
    No, I have not seen that before? Do you know if it's posted on YouTube?

    Yes, It's true that Carpenter never intended to make a sequel. He even said once he was writing the script for Halloween 2, the only reason Laurie became Michael Myers sister was because he was drunk one night while writing it, and that's the reason why Michael returned to Haddonfield.
     
  16. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    It's on the 2004 original trilogy DVD set, on a separate disc. But here it is on YouTube:


    A must-watch for every SW fan!
     
  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    The original SW, from what I remember, may have been the biggest word of mouth hit of my lifetime. It was incredible. It was like Barbie times 10. Very early on there was a Time magazine cover/rave review, and it seemed every other night there was a story on the news about sold out shows and lines around the block. Within a week my entire class wanted to see it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2024
  18. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    I'm not an expert on details but wasn't the "long" version of the Saga more the idea of Luke and co defeating a different Moff each film and more slowly learning the force?

    To me ESB seems like Lucas abandoning the idea of it as a more epic heroic saga and instead making a story which actually undercuts that idea, were Luke's desire to follow/avenge his father and his general desire for adventure come crashing down.
     
  19. Darth Vectivus

    Darth Vectivus Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 9, 2023
    Luke and Yoda scenes
     
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  20. EddieAndTheCruisers

    EddieAndTheCruisers Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 25, 2024
    There's many different aspects which set The Empire Strikes Back apart - the introductions of Yoda, Lando, Boba Fett, and the Emperor*, places like Hoth, Bespin, and Dagobah, more exciting action sequences like the attack on the Imperial Walkers and Vader's lightsaber battle with Luke - the whole thing just took the best of A New Hope and amped it up ten times. I do find it interesting though, that Irvin Kershner made both this movie and the lackluster RoboCop 2 (talk about missing the mark).

    *(formally, since he was briefly referenced in the prior film)
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2024
  21. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    The force is with you young Skywalker but you're not a jedi yet... probably my favourite moment in all the saga..script.. lighting.. that now eternal voice.
    ESB was dark and had brilliant new characters
    But there were fans who hated it. There was a fanzine apparently that disliked it so much they stopped publication saying it was too different from the original. No pleasing some people
    Was always my favourite until the battle of scariff made Rogue one my favourite
     
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  22. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    One of the things that’s always intrigued me about TESB is the attention to subtle detail. It’s not the deepest movie of all time. But this is just my take. I believe Boba Fett suspected that Lando wasn’t really loyal to Vader. But he didn’t talk with Vader about it because he knew it wasn’t his business. All he wanted to was fulfill his agenda. He was probably like, “Lord Vader can handle this rat. I’ll get me some Solo. He’s only cargo, but it’ll pay great.” So, yeah. I love those subtle details (head turns, facial expressions), etc. It makes the film more realistic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2024
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  23. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    I hear a lot from younger fans that Boba Fett is overrated. But part of his appeal was he was so mysterious, and we had endless discussions as kids filling in his backstory. Sometimes, its better not to have every little detail spelled out for you.
     
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  24. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    I'd say you just need to move on to Dengar, Zuckuss and 4-Lom but then I think there's probably a bunch of books and comics detailing their whole life too!
     
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  25. Jedi Bluth

    Jedi Bluth 10x Wacky Wednesday Winner star 7 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 4, 2021
    I freaking love Boba Fett. My favorite SW character period.

    I'll say this, and this is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm actually glad they did the comics, it undid the abomination that is ROTE.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2024
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