ST What is the best opposing argument you’ve encountered on the ST that challenged your perspective?

Now that you have had time to reflect on the ST and its impact on the saga, and whatever internet clout points we used to battle over during the production have ended, regardless of your own personal views on enjoying it or not, what is the best opposing argument you’ve encountered that challenged your views in some way? I’m not expecting 180s. However, it would be interesting to read how some of us encountered perspectives that at least helped us better understand why some feel differently about an aspect of the ST than we personally do.

 

What's sad to me is that I'm not hearing anything...people moved on very quickly!

 

I remember feeling the same way about the PT at the height of Lord of the Rings and Pottermania in the late 00s but then some of the kids who did enjoy the PT most of all came of internet age and shared their views and memes and a second wave of discussion returned. Clone wars also helped.

I’m not saying that things will be exactly the same in a few more years. I think there was
more there for kids before for that to occur. However, I do think there will be a second wave of discussion and fandom on some level.

Especially if Mandalorian’s timeline or events eventually more directly lead into concepts later explored by the ST. Or if Kenobi’s plot attempts to in some way by discussing details we didn’t know were known then that help contribute toward ideas in the ST in some way. Had they gone the Rey Kenobi route and had the Kenobi Disney + series that would have helped even more but anything’s possible and if they do use some of this storytelling in the past to setup details that we recognize as the beginnings for the ST timeline it might help. I also think the presence of Galaxy’s Edge snd some kids making memories next to characters like Kylo Ren and Ray will help long-term.

I guess we will see in a few more years as a new generation of voices comes online to share their own thoughts.

 

I think many arguments against the ST are kind of weak because some people are captured in their own idea of a sequel trilogy or don't have the ability to think a bit creatively or don't want to allow the littlest plothole. But some arguments I heard are fitting in critizising the ST: missing explanations at some points (outposting to comics, games, etc.), failed potential (e.g. Phasma, Knights of Ren) and too many similarities with the OT (design, setting). I never found the trilogy perfect or terrible and tried to have an outbalanced (but more positive) view on it. Although in my opinion the arguments against I named are strong enough to think about them.

 

I've not heard a single argument that's changed my opinion that the ST are poorly conceived and executed films. However, I honestly have a lot of respect for those that can see the films inherent flaws/issues, but can enjoy them regardless.

 

So, as a huge fan of the controversial Luke arc, the strangely intoxicating Reylo dynamic, Bendemption, and even Palpatine’s return and lineage to Rey, the one view I’ve encountered that truly made me wonder what could have been is more so the handling of Finn. Before they cleverly came up with the explanation for why so many things were coming together for the First Order like they had Palpatine’s Empire by revealing he was still a phantom menace operating in shadow, I was very much open to criticism wondering why the First Order had to be so close to the Empire. It’s really the Finn criticism that’s stuck with me. Unlike some who feel he was completely wasted, I think his side scrolling fight with Phasma is decent, and enjoyed the hints at his force sensitivity but it’s precisely those glimpses that make it frustrating to wonder what could have been. The fact there’s no closure on his force power between Rey and him at the end is especially clumsy and strange. He spends the entire film stating he wishes to tell her snd never does. All it would have taken even was a scene after the hug where she looks at him and says something like, “There’s something different about you.” “Well, I’ve been through a lot.” “No, it’s more than that.” “The force... it’s strong in you. I sense it now. “I’ve been meaning to tell you.” “I will help you harness it. I must help others harness their power too. Why?” “My grandfather devoted his life to ending the Jedi and Skywalkers. It’s now my time to undo that.

Then cut to the final scene. Would have had more resonance and would have setup a more hopeful hint at post ST rebuilding. Obviously there’s more Finn issues than that but it’s frustrating now that story thread is left dangling and could have been used to set up more hope and tie in her taking the name simultaneously. Literally a 30 second scene could have helped that IMO. SMH.

I’ve shared here before that I actually like quite a bit of the Holdo vs Poe dynamic and concept but I also agree with those opposed who believe it could have been so much better if she explained she was concerned there was a spy on board. I love the dynamic conflict quite a bit. I love how Leia is this calming force in both of their lives who balance them and how both could have gotten along better if Leia had been the one there to bridge those differences and those rivalries and that envy over the other’s relationship with Leia but none of that is explored as well as it could have been.

I also admit that as much as I love the Ahch-To, Luke/Ben/Rey dynamic where Ben successfully drives a wedge between the possibility of Luke and Rey, there are similar little concepts that I wish I somehow made it in that would have smoothed it all out even more.

I also think that as fun as the twist of Luke being on Ahch-To is on first watch, I would have preferred like a scene where Luke explains he must fly to Crait and Yoda tells him there’s no time and Luke comes up with another idea and Yoda shoots it down also.

“Nothing tried will get you there in time.”
“Wait. That’s it. I must do it. Full commitment. There is no other way.”
“If thinking what I think are you, there will be no way back.”
“They won’t survive without assistance.”
“Survive they may not... even with this.”
“Only one way to find out.”
“Missed you, Skywalker, I have.”

Again, a 30 second scene could have setup the sacrifice as one a little better while also continuing one of the most magical aspects of VIII... Yoda helping Luke through a block once more.

It’s actually because I enjoy the ST so much that it’s the moments I feel like a little tweak here or there would help elevate things so much more that it’s hard.

 

Yeah, it really just seems forgettable to me. It’s cool if other people enjoy it, but I just don’t see the significant addition to the story or why they had to exist.

The ST could’ve gone in so many great directions, but instead they chose the OT rehash. If they just made three movies about how the New Republic, led by our Rebellion heroes, had to deal with being in power and avoiding the flaws that led to the fall of the Old Republic, that would’ve tied all three movies together and been a great role-reversal.

Instead, the Republic only lasts as long as the Empire and falls immediately only for us to do the whole same song and dance that was done better in the OT, except it’s prettier thanks to modern day filmmaking.

How can this be memorable or have any cultural impact if it doesn’t tread any new ground?


EDIT: On-topic, unfortunately, I haven’t really heard any good arguments except maybe the one that our heroes weren’t perfect and couldn’t hold up the New Republic by themselves, because reality just isn’t that romantic. While realistic, it just makes the stories less enjoyable. Plus, the resolution to the ST doesn’t justify it since the young characters basically just do the same exact things they did, so there’s no real lesson to be learned other than that Rey will fail someday like Luke did. Although we don’t even know what she’s going to do because the movie never tells us this.

 

I love all Star Wars films, and I'm now glad that the ST exists. The only argument that challenged my perspective was a novelization full of clarification that should have made the cut of the final film. Before March, I was prepared to discard Star Wars from my life entirely, and I still recommend that route for anyone considering resorting to head canon and mental gymnastics. Save yourself the trouble if it bothers you that much.

 

Can't think of anything. But I do know that the Mandalorian and Disney+ helped me simply accept the ST (with a shrug, rather than much annoyance), simply because I now know there's going to be a lot of great content outside the movie-verse.

 

I'm similar - but I haven't "accepted the ST". Especially with S2 of Mando I'm looking at it as the true sequel to ROTJ.

 

By accepted, I just mean...accepted that it happened. It's purely a factual thing.

 

That's a good point and there's a lot of validity behind it, but it's kinda at the root of a big Catch-22 that the ST was subjected to by outside forces; TFA got lambasted for being a rehash of ANH and not trying anything new, but when TLJ tried new things it also got lambasted. It's very much a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Granted, I don't think the films *needed* to have cultural impact (though I agree it would have been nice if they did and, indeed, preferable). Not every film series is going to be OT, LOTR or Harry Potter. Some are going to be the Die Hard movies or the Baldwin/Ford Jack Ryan trilogy instead, and that's fine.

It's funny, becuase once upon a time the fact that NJO, KOTOR and whatever other early 2000s offerings the francise had existed helped me accept the PT with a shrug for the same reason (of course, I've since come around to the PT and don't think it was all that bad anymore - for the most part).

Way I see it, even if someone does'nt like the ST their should be plenty of SW-related (past and current) content they do enjoy; the francise has been around long enough and has enough depth and variety to make the chances of that happening fairly strong; I'm not going to stop liking going outside just becuase I don't like bugs and rain, I don't hate my country just becuase I don't like the president and having to pay taxes, I still like my job even though my supervisor is an jerk and I'm not going to stop liking Star Wars just becuase I (hypothetically) don't like this movie or that game/comic/novel.

I would'nt

And for the record - and at the risk of sounding sappy - I find our conversations rewarding; heck I don't even think our opinions are really all that different to begin with.

Forgot moms. Kylo needed a Roman Catholic Irish-American grandmother like I had, becuase if had one of those he would never have dared turn to the Dark Side in the first place

 

I mean, that's a very convenient excuse for the people in charge or writing and/or directing the films but I don't think it's accurate.

 

It's literally exactly what happened, though, is'nt it?

TFA rehashed ANH, and got criticized (fairly - to an extent - IMO), with peaple complaining that it should have tried new things. TLJ then tried new things, and peaple complained that it was "too different," and to this day - years later, mind you - peaple still drag one film through the rakers becuase it was to much like ANH while also doing the same to the other becuase it broke some imaginary rule(s) about what Star Wars "had" to be and do and instead had the audacity to attempt and shake the formula up a little bit. This discussion is one that I've seen (and participated in) many times on this forum, so it's definantly accurate. As for a "convenient excuse" for their writers well I can't say if it is, as I did'nt write TFA and TLJ, though as far as I'm concerned writers don't need excuses, convenient or otherwise, for their narrative choices (even if said choices are stupid as h-e-double-hockeysticks).

IMO some peaple were always going to get upset over the ST no matter what it did, even if Lucas had made it himself (if only becuase so much time had passed that so many peaple had been able to build up their own perferred version of what "should" happen and what the francise is "truly" about).

I see your point, but remember that, despite TROS's retcon, in TLJ we are shown that his X-wing was submerged in seawater, had started to decay and was partally disassembled (the door to his hut is one of it's wings). We don't need the movie to tell us why he can't fly to Crait when it already showed us why - though I do agree that there's a lot of room for improvement/ironing out the rogue edges in TLJ.

Though more on-topic...

Probably those of @LedReader. His points usually make a great deal of sense of if imagine that I'm viewing things from his perspective and it's helped me understand the mindset, if not agree with, the "other side." @devilinthedetails I don't really disagree with at all (if ever, at least not in a noticable way) but I appreciate her ability to see both sides of some of the more heated ST related debates around here, which is refreshing and sometimes provides a vital link between "veiwpoint A" and "veiwpoint B" that tends to sometimes get lost in the polarization.

 

I don't think TLJ tried really much more new things than TFA did.

 

You might not think that (for my part I'm of the opinion that TLJ did'nt go nearly far enough and was playing softball in a lot of areas), but it's still one of the most common "criticisms" leveled at the film. Hence the overblown "subverted expectations!" meme, the complaints that Johnson did'nt understand what Star Wars was "truly" about and opinion-presented-as-fact statements like "Luke would never act X way" and "hyperspace/the Force does'nt work Y way" and whatnot.

 

To be fair, "hyperspace doesn't work that way" arguments were being directed at TFA too, for Han jumping so close as to be under the planetary shield.

 

To be fair, yes.

But I don't really think the complaint makes any more sense in that instance then in TLJ. The movie is quite clear in explaining how they got through the shield and, even if it was'nt, there was nothing in canon at the time saying you could'nt us hyperspace to bypass a shield (or, at least, nothing that I know of).

 

The main source these arguments used was the ANH novel, which portrayed jumping in areas of gravitational influence as highly dangerous.

"How long before you can make the jump?" Kenobi inquired easily, apparently unconcerned that at any second they all might cease to exist.
"We're still within the gravitational influence of Tatooine," came the cool response. "It will be a few minutes yet before the navigation computer can compensate and effect an accurate jump. I could override its decision, but the hyperdrive would likely shred itself. That would give me a nice hold full of scrap metal in addition to you four."

This was also the source used for arguments that Rogue One (and before that, TCW) ignored previously established hyperdrive info, too.

 

"Likely" shred itself and "compensate" being the key words - the novel does'nt say its impossible, just that it's dangerous unless you've properly compensated; TFA treats both the out-of-hanger jump and the jump through the sheilds as something risky, and in R1 they did'nt have a choice becuase it was a choice between *maybe* dying and definitely dying, so I don't see the problem myself (on top of that neither TFA and R1 are the first time we've seen hyperspace jumps in gravity wells; it happened at least twice that I can remember in TCW)

 

Hence "and before that, TCW".

 

I totally missed that in the brackets, lol. Sorry, I'm multitasking between three different things on the computer and watching TV ATM.