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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST What is the best opposing argument you’ve encountered on the ST that challenged your perspective?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ender_and_Bean, Oct 27, 2020.

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  1. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I don't know why you have to be so snippy.

    You started a conversation on a public forum and I decided to take part in it. If you don't want engage further beyond that, then don't engage, and if you chose not to take the coversation further with me then I can take a hint.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I don’t know, man. When you and I used to go back and forth, you told me my viewpoint of the characters, especially Rey, was “wrong” so often that I felt like you were telling me that I should have been questioning my own senses when I was watching the movies, since the Rey I saw allegedly never appeared on screen. And would argue Rian Johnson’s intentions for the character as factual when his viewpoint of the character is as subjective as anyone else’s and not one we are obligated to get on board with.

    And the “won’t shut up and move on” goes back to what I said about a statute of limitations. As long as discussion itself is happening, discussion will be both positive and negative.
     
  3. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Any organisation, specifically one as big as Disney, proactively work to protect and promote the brand and its products. That rarely includes being totally transparent. And the conversation we're having about this re. Johnson making another SW film, kind of underlines the point. Otherwise we'd know one way or the other yes?

    Not really no, because he's not under contract to.

    LOL. So you believe that anyone who doesn't expect Johnson to make another SW film only includes those that don't like TLJ? Why don't we start a poll? It seems to me, very few people expect Johnson to come back, regardless of whether they liked TLJ or not.

    That's not the same thing at all. When studios have a 'list' of planned film to make, it involves scripts, treatments... and even in some cases books, that they have acquired the rights to, and that are in some form of development, or have been deliberately buried (that happens too right?).
    But it does require the acquisition of those scripts, treatments, books etc... in the first place, even if they never get made. But we've already agreed that Johsnon hasn't been paid or is contracted to deliver a new Star Wars film... so whatever that 'list' is (unless Johnson has handed over a script or treatment he's been paid for), it won't include a Johnson film. Which isn't to say (as I said at the very start) that Johnson doesn't have an agreement/understanding with Lucasfilm that he can submit a pitch for a new SW film, and get some form of prioritisation... but that isn't the same.

    Because that's the obvious extension of you being unwilling to countenance the possibility of the notion that a new Johnson SW has been dropped.

    Fair point. So if you're stating you've never made assumptions and hypothesising regarding Star Wars fine... If I may ask, why did you join a Star Wars forum only after, what is regarded to be, the weakest film in the saga was released?

    If you're going to speak for the man, providing a direct quote from the man would be a start...:)

    You mean 'those treatments' where all interested parties are on the record as saying they were not used. Are those the 'treatments' you're referring to?;)

    Obfuscation. They didn't use Lucas' treatments. The ST that we have, is seemingly not the one that Lucas conceived. I'd strongly recommend (and I'm not being sarcastic because it's very interesting) reading the Paul Duncan book. It's exceedingly apparent how different they were.

    The CEO of Disney most definitely has grip and control of the entire company. He has the ultimate accountably. Their job is dependant on keeping that grip and control across the organisation and keeping strategy on track.

    Paraphrasing... that Lucasfilm didn't use Lucas' ideas for the sequels, and that Lucas was very upset about it... and that Iger blamed himself for the handling of it. At no point in his book does he indicate, or allude to the notion, that they used Lucas' treatments/ideas for the ST. At no point does Iger question why Lucas was upset. As already stated, he understood why he was upset.

    Obfuscation. That Luke was described as 'Kurtz-like' isn't in question. It's the veracity around whether:
    A) Lucas himself envisaged Luke as a 'Kurtz-like' character in his sequels.
    B) That this 'characterisation' was carried over in a meaningful way to TLJ.
    As I said initially, only someone with a very superficial understanding of the character would describe Luke as 'Kurtz-like' in TLJ i.e. he is mean and lives in a cave. Hamlet just had an issue with his uncle... that kind of thing.

    And that further underlines the point. Kurtz isn't a nice character. He's twisted, corrupted, he sets himself up as a god like figure. He's a man that hasn't brought 'civilisation' to the place he journeys, but instead, has been totally corrupted by it. This is not the depiction of Luke in TLJ... but yes, I can certainly believe Lucas may have considered showing this version of Luke, and it played into early rumour/speculation about Luke being 'missing in action', when journeying to discover some ancient force/Sith artefact. And it was this force/Sith artefact that was the fulcrum of the sequels, at a plot level.

    Well quite... and I was just underlining the point that it's quite ridiculous to claim that one avoids assumption and speculation, to score a point, re. SW, when one is often shown to be doing just that. We all make assumptions and observations... why set yourself apart like that? Everything we discuss is based on observation and perception... very little is scientific and laboratory approved. However, we can speculate, observe, hypothesise with a modicum of logic and, where appropriate, insight and experience.:)

    That's very none specific. What's your cut off point for believing that Johnson is developing a SW film then? 15-20 years? Or when he's rolled off this mortal coil and gone to meet his maker perhaps? Re. your analogy. The point is that if your room mate was ordering pizza for you, you wouldn't expect it to be an indefinite period? I'd assume if he was ordering a pizza, and didn't specify a time/date, you'd ask when he's planning to get it delivered for?

    As per above. The analogy doesn't involve any change in plans does it? For it to be a fitting analogy it would have to have an open ended facet i.e. your room mate saying 'at some point I will make you a chicken dinner. It may be tomorrow... or it may be in 25 years... or I may never make it at all, depending on how I (and the chicken) feel about it'. How many years do you leave it until you start to suspect that the chicken dinner will never come?

    Don't take this the wrong way, but from my point of view, it's you that's been kind of dragging this thread down... what with all these conversations about chicken fricken dinners etc... ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  4. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Apologies for double post... but the previous one was un-editable when try to respond to your 2nd post...

    Well we have the data for it and it is empirically true.... The data clearly suggests that less people went to see TLJ than went to see TFA. Less people went to see TROS than went to see TLJ. Seriously K2, do you believe this data is rigged or something? And do you believe Disney aren't fully aware of what the data suggests?

    We do know that the live action films were canceled, because it was part of Disney's live action film schedule that they communciated. We can see that Disney anticipated making a billion + $ per movie. And with all respect to those involved, an Obi-Wan and The Mandalorian show won't make a direct return of a billion $ a series... I mean, they could have had both right? Successful TV shows and films running concurrently? That was the plan right? You are aware of that? However, and I feel confident about this, (assuming Obi-Wan is as good as The Mando), the TV shows will generate more interest, and bring back some audiences, for the next live action film...

    'Directly experienced'? I didn't know you'd been to the moon in 69? Which one were you K2?

    So you believe Disney/Lucasfilm have absolutely no policy/strategy for garnering audience opinion/customer research, on the content of their billion dollar business... because you've never been asked to take part in it or have personally observed it? Wowser... [face_talk_hand]

    The Jedi and The New Republic are not concepts of the ST... Doh!!!

    I think the shifting of goal posts is entirely yours. That the show is set AFTER ROTJ is not a reference to the ST. That there is a New Republic is not a reference to the ST.

    Again another example of the sort of language that drags the discussion down...

    You don't believe live action SW shows are regarded as 'big ticket' Star Wars content? Really?

    Because we have a pretty good idea of what's currently in development (certainly what's in production and pre-production), regardless of official comms, and they don't appear to be ST related.

    Well yes. And I imagine he has little to no interest in the ST... Happy to take a bet now if you are...

    "Generic or no" is fundamental to the point in hand. That the ST featured Luke, Leia and Han etc. as well as new protagonists, and involved a darkside antagonist is an outline that pretty much any one would put forward... and is not evidence that they took anything from Lucas' treatments. And as already mentioned, Bob Iger is on the record as stating that they decided not to use Lucas' treatments.

    That both parties agree that they didn't use his ideas for the sequels is the pertinent point.

    I agree... it didn't last long... but I think that was a result of their strategy going a bit Pete Tong, so they adjusted.


    I 'compared' him to Baby Yoda... I didn't 'equate' him to the ST i.e. Lucasfilm have a view on what they believe is popular and unpopular... and will try and promote the poplar and avoid the unpopular.


    I'm only giving you my opinion/observation of your replies... and you do seem to be more led by your heart than your head... which is why (IMHO) you're being drawn into multiple arguments with other posters. I'm just recommending that you take a step back a bit.


    There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that audiences were 'getting a bit sick' of Star Wars because there was too much of it. How many new SW films had there been when Solo came out compared to MCU films? It's a convenient deflection. Audiences will pretty much always gravitate towards content they are interested in (assuming they know about it... so I acknowledge the 'promotion' element) and/or that have a good 'buzz' about them.

    Now that is moving the goal posts... It does't matter where in the process directors were sacked/let go, because in these situations, letting a director go impacted production for both Solo and TROS. Also, you're not correct on your other point. From what we know, both an Obi-Wan and Boba Fett film were in development as live action films.

    I refer you to all the other posts about roommates and chicken dinners...

    You're using it as an insult, if that's what you mean by using the word hater in the 'correct way'...
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  5. mtt02263

    mtt02263 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2020
    In reference to the box office discussion, even if TFA exceeded expectations, I'm sure that Disney and LFL would adjust expectations following. TLJ made 220 million opening weekend, roughly 90% of TFA's opening weekend. I realize that the schedules were slightly different during the holiday season, but TLJ ended up making around 65% of the total box office of TFA after a massive opening weekend. It had some of the worst December box office legs of all time, this is indicative of mixed reception, people did not go back to see it like with TFA. Solo famously bombed and then TROS barely crossed a billion, it just can't be argued that there has been a major downward trend for LFL since TFA, or more specifically TLJ.
     
  6. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Its somewhat healthy to discuss frustration with something you love. Its done in every sports forum ever and far worse. No one is insulting actors. And I'm not sure why certain posters take any criticism of The TLJ so personally like their uncle made the film. I'm not sure people realize how personally insulting they get with their posts. Esp. when they complain about the exact same thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  7. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Quoted for truth... And I'm totally up for discussing the perceived reasons why that were the case e.g. negative reaction/poor word of mouth, bad marketing, over saturation, too much competition etc. etc. (not all reasons are pointed at the quality of the films), but when people try and claim that the declining box office wasn't a 'thing', or that Lucasfilm/Disney are totally happy with declining numbers because they made x billion, and have no interest in understanding why less people wanted to go back and see their next Star Wars films, it feels like we're entering Donald Trump territory.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  8. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I never in a million years thought I wouldnt be excited for a new sw film. I watched TROS trailer once. I must have watched TFA trailers 200 times.The Lego movie does look good. As does .Mando. and I loved RO. So there goes the SW fans are never happy theory. :)
     
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  9. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Well quite... and I'd posit that this is not random.

    Firstly, this isn't about The Mandalorian in isolation. It's not an exception. This is about The Mandalorian + Obi-Wan + Cassian + Ahsoka + Boba Fett etc.
    Secondly, you're comparing apples and oranges. When Lucas started developing ideas for new SW content, post ROTJ, it very much focused on, or heavily connected to, the OT characters. That's kind of the point...

    Distancing itself from the ST, yes. Removing it from canon or never referring to it again, no. You get the difference right?

    How can it be negated? Most people are aware that they are shaking up Galaxy's Edge in order to pull back from the ST. We've just come out of a period of ST marketing. Of course Disney/Lucasfilm were going to use Galaxy's Edge to promote the ST. Disney/Lucasfilm's strategy re. the ST may be flawed, but I'm sure they are smart enough to learn from their mistakes.

    The examples you provided were facile. The confirmation bias is all yours honey.

    If you're telling me, as a fan of the ST, that an animated Lego Holiday special has parity over live action TV shows and movies... then I think the ST has truly found it's level, which is something I'd agree with... and I'm sure it will be a good Lego show.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue? I've already stated in this thread several times that, IMHO, Disney/Lucasfilm changed tack after TFA i.e. they realised their mistake.

    Thing is, I don't see any evidence to the contrary other than SW Lego.

    Ultimately these things are very straight forward. It doesn't matter if it's a film studio, a music publisher or a software developer. They tend to fund projects that they believe are more popular with audiences. If focusing more on PT/OT era content was a strategy to give the ST more 'breathing room', then it was a flawed one IMHO, because an anthology film about, for example, the origins of the Knights of Ren, or a TV show about the adventures of Maz and Luke Skywalker 10 years before TFA, could have been used to actually develop and flesh out characters and concepts for the ST, which may have generated more interest in, and created more sustainability for, the ST era as a whole.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  10. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Yeesh. Lots of moving goalposts here. I'll try to sum up. Let me know if I am misrepresenting your position.

    One one hand, you are saying that Lucasfilm is distancing itself from the ST. Your evidence: currently, there is are no ST era live action films/shows in production. Also, you've heard rumors that Galaxy's Edge will no longer be centered around the ST in the future. Also, you aren't seeing enough ST easter eggs/references in The Mandalorian.

    One the other hand, you acknowledge that from very start of the Disney's acquisition, the ST era has never been the focus of the additional live action anthology movies/shows, etc. You consider this a mistake. Furthermore, you also acknowledge that the ST era is still front and center in much of the current SW animation, games, comics, tv specials, merchandise, theme parks, etc.

    Listen, the ST is over. Surely, Lucasfilm is shifting focus into current projects. Yet, just because we don't have something like a live action BB-8 miniseries doesn't mean that Lucasfilm is trying to distance itself from the ST. I get why you want to see it that way, I just don't think there is enough evidence to back up your take on things other than speculation and rumors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  11. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Me pointing out that the view you have of Rey (that she was "a woman" trying to "fix" "a man" and that the character was supposed to be wearing makeup to seduce Ben just becuase the actress was wearing makeup - like she was in every other scene in the film) is unlikely to be how the director/writers indended you to read the character and pointing out there is no canon evidence to support Reylo=/=me telling you your personal interpritation of the character is wrong.

    An opinion cannot be wrong. You can interprete Rey any way you want to. But what can be wrong is that your interpretation does not line up with the actual intentions of the directors/writers; for example if someone wanted to read Spock and Doctor McCoy as having a sexual attraction to each other becuase they bicker like a sassy old married couple, that's fine, that's their opinion, but it's doubtful that Gene Roddenberry intended them to be read that way, so while they may be right when it comes to their personal interpritation, their wrong when it comes to canon.

    The writers veiws on what he intended to do with his writing is "subjective?" (let alone "just as" subjective as anyone elses).:confused:

    I'm pretty sure Johnson (and Abrams/Lucas) are more of an expert on their intentions then you are, no offense.

    Your missing the point.

    It's not about the conversation being negative (or positive) it's about it being so negative that the negative side is freqently derailing threads and shouting down peaple who disagree with them.

    Honestly, anakinfan, did someone hijack your account or something? Becuase I'll be honest my previous interactions with you would lead me to believe you would be the last person to condone such an unhealthy enviorment, but here you are apparently telling me and others that we should just "deal with" getting pushed around and subjected to a sometimes-toxic enviorment.

    Look man, the point is the only evidence we have either way is Disney's offical statement saying that he will be making three films. There's no evidence to suggest that is'nt the case or that plans have changed, and no evidence to suggest Disney is lying, so logical would dictate that he is still going to make his films. That's really all their is to it.

    I'm sorry but when given the choice between beleving Disney when they say something will happen in an offical statement and beliving you, a random guy online whose provided no evidence, I'm gonna believe Disney.

    I can't really think of any reason to be so agianst the idea unless you have some sort of bais that would lead you to think that way.

    I never said i was unwilling to believe RJ was making a new film(s).

    I did'nt join the forum after ATOC was released:p

    Serious answer? ecuase none of my friends had seen it yet and I needed to talk through my experience (interestingly enough doing so, along with watching the film more times, helped me get a better and less negative view of it).

    I did.

    The treatments were not used, but elements of them obviously were.

    I don't even understand why your disputing that. It's common knowledge.

    Duh, of course their different. All I'm doing is pointing out that LFL used elements of his treatments as a base to build the ST (which, again, is common knowledge). I'm well aware that they did'nt adapt the whole thing and used plenty of their own ideas.

    Did Iger ever say that they did'nt adapt elements of the Lucas's ideas? Becuase I doubt he did and if he did he's either lying or misinformed.

    Did you even read what I posted? That description (which was from Lucas's ideas for the character and comes from the a TLJ sourcebook) fit TLJ to a T. Heck even Alzmann (or it might have been Chiang) even points out in a different post that their ideas predate Johnson's involvement, which seems to indicate they are well aware of the correlation between Lucas's ideas=what TLJ delivered on.

    If someone said "I envisone this character as Hamlet-like" I don't think it's illogical to assume they may mean he's has some traits in common with Hamlet, such as that he's consumed by a sense of revenge towards one family member for the death of anouther.

    :oops::oops::oops::oops:

    Becuase Kurtz-like does not equate to "is literally the same character as Colonel Kurtz."

    Do you understand what the term "like" means, it means "akin to." Luke being Kurtz-like just means they have some similarities, it does'nt mean their the same character. I doubt anyone ever intented Luke to be living as a self-appointed god in the middle of rural Vietnam.

    I'll post what I posted before again, becuse clearly you did not read it. How is this...
    [​IMG]
    ...not the dipiction of Luke in TLJ?

    I'm fine with making observations and assumptions, just not when facts/evidence exists otherwise.

    Ten, maybe?

    But I would expect that Disney would have annouched that they he was no longer making his films well before that much time had passed.

    I'm just responding to your posts. And I've made it quite clear I would rather use all either move on or have our discussions moved to a more relevent thread.

    No, I just don't interprete the data the same way you do.


    ;)

    The only evidence I have for this is your claim that it happens, and your just a random dude online, so why should I believe that movie studios call peaple up or send them mail asking random things about films?

    I know about test screenings, where they gather a sample audience and show them films/shows or parts of films/shows, and then ask them what they thought of them afterwards, but I've never heard to out-of-the-blue phonecalls and mail-in questionnaires like your asserting exist, and it seems like such a thing would be pretty hard to miss, becuase even if I never got one statistically at least several peaple I know should have.

    Then what's it a reference to? Legends? Becuase it it was the New Republic (to say nothing of the Mandalorians and the setting of the show itself) would be pretty different and plot of the show probobly would'nt even exist.

    The canon New Republic is a ST concept, as it was created for TFA and first appeared in Aftermath, a ST tie in book.

    I'd say it's about comparable to Rebels and TCW in terms of the audience it appeals to.

    They don't "appear to be" anything related.

    All we know about the movies of the writer/directors on the docket are that they are Star Wars movies. I don't think any of them have been annouced to be set during a certain era, no (save for Johnsons, I believe, which was to be set during a "totally new" time or something).

    Okay, I'll bite.

    Why?

    Again, "we did'nt use Lucas's treatments" does'nt equal "we did'nt use elements of Lucas's treatments.

    Sam and Kira are pretty obviously the starting point that became Finn and Rey, the Jedi Killer pretty obviously became Kylo and Lucas's ideas for Luke sound exactly like those used in TLJ. Your literally the only person I've ever seen argue otherwise, and I hate to say this but the evidence is not in your favor (despite how hard your trying to ingore it).

    So then what are you saying? That the ST is not popular?

    I would say that it's many fans (including all the new SW fans who exist becuase of it) would disagree with you.

    I know quite a few peaple who admitted to being pretty Star Wars-ed out at varying points (depending on the person) between TLJ and TROS, and I myself got pretty Marvel-ed out quite a while (years) ago.

    And I'll refer you to all the times I've asked if anyone knows a better place to put these conversations (something I'll note that nobody else has done).

    The only peaple who should be "insulted" by the term hater in the context I'm using it are actual haters, and it's not an insult to state a fact.

    I'm not even sure why your making such a big deal about this. Best I can recall I never called you a hater, I just said that you hated TLJ (becuase that's how your posts read) and then stopped using that word when you clarified that you did not.

    You mean decades after the fact, not long before he sold the company?

    Is'nt your point that the lack of ST era content/references (which is a false point to start with) is evidence that LFL is trying to avoid that era? If so then what does that say about Lucas and the OT when he took so long to get back to it and never actually made anything?

    Thing is I'm not sure there's any evidence that Disney thought the PT was something they had to avoid; sure, Abrams seemed to want to avoid referencing it TFA, but that seems to have just been his personal choices as a writer.

    The soon-to-be-released comic adaption of TROS.
    Poe Dameron: Free Fall
    Several episodes of Galaxy of Adventure.
    Squadrons, which...

    has Hosnian Prime in it, features the Imperial PC being sent to the Unknown Regions to join the FO at the end and has an MC95 Cruiser - a ST era ship - in one level.

    Fallen Order, which has SK Base in it.
    Galaxy's Edge, which is entirely ST based. Yes, they have plans to revamp the park, but A) whose to say that revamp will remove all or even just some ST era content and B) if Disney had such an aversion to the ST they would have done so already, as their was a period after the films release were Covid did not exist to stop them.
    The Mandalorian, which has references to the ST in it, irregardless of the fact that you apparently somehow consider them "lesser" then the references to the PT/OT or are in denial that they are ST era concepts.

    And I'm sure there are other examples I can't recall or am unaware of.

    The first major post-ROTJ content was'nt released until, I believe, several years after the fact. So unless you also want to argue LFL was turned off to the OT during that time, it seems to me that things are not as strightforward as you like to believe.

    I'd say the "worst december logs of all time" is offset by "highest grossing film of 2017," "seventh highest grossing film in North America," "ninth highest grossing film of all time," "second highest grossing SW film," "critically acclaimed," "four Academy award nominations," "two BAFTA nominations," ect...

    Again, I don't think profitablity or acclaim matters to quality, but if we're getting into that argument then by no metric is TLJ unsucessful save for the totally artifical metric that SW "must" make X amount of money and "must" attract X amount of viewers

    Your right, it can't.

    The thing is different peaple interpret it differently.

    It's not the above we take issue with, chris, it's the below.

     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    No one is “pushing you around” unless there is a post that I missed and that you didn’t report, and disliking a film in a discussion of that film is not “creating a toxic environment”.

    And maybe it is Rian Johnson’s opinion that Rey’s onscreen behavior is not trying to “fix” Kylo and is not a sexist trope, but I am not obligated to adopt that opinion of his, and her onscreen actions are the same.
     
  13. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    No offense, but I really don't see how you could have missed how bad the enviorment around here gets and how often the peaple who dislike/hate the ST act the way I'm describing.

    And gain, your must be misunderstanding. It's not that peaple dislike it and want to talk about that fact that's the issue. That's fine. It's that they...
    A) constantly derail threads by bringing up, and harping on, the fact that they dislike it, and doing so not to be constructive but simple to remind peaple how they feel (even when nobody asked)
    B) misrepersent or outright claim their opinions are facts, making it impossible to have a resonable conversation with them becuase if their opinion is a fact then it cannot be disputed.
    C) shout down those who disagree with them, often for simply having the temarity to enjoy something they hate.
    D) generally treat the peaple who like/are outright fans of the ST with contempt (both thinly vieled and not), as if they are "lesser" or "not real" SW fans.
    F) get so bad that other peaple often have to quite threads - do you remember the time I had to leave the Finn thread becuase I wanted to discuss what I enjoyed about the character and every time I (and the peaple who shared my opinion) tried to do that everyone else shouted over us, tore use down and forced the coversation to revolve around hating on the character and the ST. Heck, if I recall correctly I was even called a racist at one point!
    G) telling peaple that their subjective opinions are wrong, while at the same time turning around and claiming their own subjective opinions are stright-up facts.
    Ect...

    [​IMG]

    And look, I get it, you don't see the problem. That does'nt mean it does'nt exist and it does'nt change the fact that there are a lot of us here who are getting fed up with it. Nobody is saying this forum needs to be 100 percent postive and 100 percent negative, it's just that surely when the negativity has gotten to the point that it's gotten to that it's a problem, no?

    It's say that, given that he's the writer of the film, it's not his "opinon" but rather his intent, and agian I have to ask - why are you more of an expert on that they he is? Why is he sexist just becuase you say he is, even though he clearly never meant to be anything of the sort?

    What's in the film is canon. Nobody says you have to like it or even accept it, but I'm sorry to say that your headcanon does not trump what the movie's actual intent is and what the lore actually says. Nothing in TLJ (and best I can remember nothing anywhere else) says Rey wanting to help Kylo was based around their respective genders, ergo Johnson was not adhering to an (alleged) sexist trope.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  14. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    And the people that love the ST act the exact same way. For example your post here talking about 'head canon' I don't think you even understand it the word to be honest. It's not head canon that Rey and Kylo's relationship in TLJ exhibited awful sexist tropes and stereotypes that's a fact. Now Rian may not have intended it to be taken that way but when a significant portion of the audience can interpret it that way then it's on the write to do a better job of actual conveying his intent on screen because what he did was not convey it well.

    Just by being a fan of fiction in general and noticing tropes can make you more of an expert than the person writing it. Seeing bad sexist tropes hundreds if not thousands of time in TV and film can make one an expert at spotting said tropes. Just because someone is a professional writer doesn't mean they are immune from writing those tropes. Kylo and Rey meets all of those criteria so Rian should have done a better job writing to convey whatever his actual intent was.

    If Rey was Ray why would he want to help Kylo who arguably just maimed his best friend and tortured him..... Even if you change genders it still doesn't work because the intent of the writer isn't not clear at all. The only thing is clear is that whatever happened between Kylo and Rey in TFA doesn't matter in the context of TLJ. Also intent is not canon what is on screen is canon. What was written presented and acted out no matter what the gender of either character is a toxic and abusive relationship between them that shouldn't even exist based on character backgrounds and their interaction in the previous film.

    Since you going to bring Rian Johnson's intent and words into the conversation him calling the finger touching scene the closest thing in Star Wars to a sex scene is a pretty good indication of the romantic or lustful overtones to their relationship that people see in TLJ.

    You also say that it's tough here for people that love the ST well in many cases those that love the film can be just as rude and offensive as you seem to think all of the 'haters' are. You've even engaged in this thread in the very same manner that you seem to attribute to all of the haters. Whether you love or hate the film both sides have a tendency to get offensive with each other.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  15. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I'm sure they do, but in my experience on this forum? Eh, not so much.

    From urban dictonary.

    An idea or opinion about a fictional series (Book, TV, comic or otherwise) that is true in one's head, but has not become a canon fact.

    So beliving Rey wanting to help Kylo was a choice based around their genders, or that she went to get him off the Supremacy becuase she was in love with him, is headcanon.

    Is it?

    If Rey were a guy I can't think of any reason to believe the movie would be different, ergo they are not sexists tropes. There's nothing sexist about a person showing compassion to anouther person, or beliving that said person can be redeemed/have good in them. Kylo and Rey's dynamic in TLJ is no more sexist then Luke and Vader's in ROTJ.

    Or maybe the storyline he wrote just did'nt do it for you?

    Does'nt mean there was anything wrong with the movie or what it conveyed, just means you did'nt personally enjoy it.

    Let me put it this way. Do you have any evidence Johnson is a sexist? And why are these tropes sexist? Becuase you say so? What's sexist about a person showing compassion to anouther person and beliving they can change?

    For the same reason Rey did. Becuase (assuming the film was otherwise 100 percent the same) he would have been a deeply empathic/compassionate person who would have learned about Kylo's sympathtic past, would have had a vision that led him to belive Kylo would turn and would have been desperate for an alternative to Luke in order to turn the tide of the war.

    Strange then, that it worked for me and so many others.

    Rey's a naturally compassionate person with some sort of connection to Kylo Ren (TROS told us what it was, but we already knew it existed in TLJ and TFA), and she went to bring Kylo back not becuase she loved him as so many fans like to postulate, but becuase she felt she had no choice or alternative (to movie is fairly clear about that). It all made perfect sense to me.

    Agree to disagree. I thought TLJ made perfect sense in light of TFA.

    Exactly, what is on screen (and provided in other canon materials) is canon. And nothing in canon (that I can recall, at least) tells us Rey's actions in TLJ are due to their respective genders or some sort of (alleged) romantic feelings.

    Of course it's toxic and abusive. Nobody is arguing that and the movie makes it pretty clear that it's not supposed to be veiwed as positive or healthy dynamic (or at least it seemed pretty clear to me).

    As for whether or not it should'nt exist based on TFA, well TFA already established they had some sort of connection and I'd say if it's a pretty safe bet Abrams felt Johnson was acting out of line he would have said something.

    You understand what a "joke" is, right?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, when peaple have to resort to off-hand jokes made in behind the scenes interveiws to support Reylo, it's shows how lacking the canon evidence must be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  16. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    What was the purpose of the ST? What story was it trying to tell?
     
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  17. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    To make money for Disney and reluanch/revitalize the increasingly dormant SW brand.

    The story of what happened in the generation after TROS.
     
  18. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Good Lord we're all just stating our opinions. Why are such obvious things being pointed out every single day around here? People get stuck on the strangest things.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  19. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Well, a couple things.
    A) if a person states their opinion as if it's fact you are, intentionally or no, creating the image that a person cannot resonably dispute you; how is someone supposed to argue with "Disney ruined Star Wars" or have a reasonable discussion with someone who refuses to accept that peaple who feel otherwise are holding valid opinons, for instance? (this is the reason I myself am always very careful to try and say things like "I think," "I feel," "I veiwed/interpreted," and never dispute the validity of a persons personal views if when I disagree with them/dispute that they align with canon/writer intent.
    B) some peaple don't think their opinions are opinions, but rather assert they actually are facts; for instance past discussions I have had with peaple were they flat-out say that it's a fact that X movie is poorly written and that their personal interpritation of certain events in X movie is factual and mine is "wrong."
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  20. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Edit
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  21. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    *SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH......*

    THERE’S A REASON I DIDN’T COME TO THIS THREAD. I KNEW AT SOME POINT THE DISCUSSION WOULD LEAVE TALKING ABOUT ARGUMENTS AND INSTEAD TALKING ABOUT THE ARGUERS.

    LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY:

    - DON’T COME HERE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE COMPLAINERS.
    - DON’T COME HERE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE COMPLAINERS ABOUT THE COMPLAINERS.
    - IF YOU FIND YOURSELF TALKING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE, THE GENERAL ATMOSPHERE OF THE FORUM, OR ABOUT HATERS/LOVERS OF THE ST OVERALL... THAT NOT THE ARGUMENT, SO STOP POSTING IT IN HERE.
    - IF YOU HAVE ISSUES WITH THE OVERALL ATMOSPHERE OF THE FORUM... MAYBE USE THE REPORT FUNCTION IN THE THREADS ABOUT INDIVIDUAL TOPICS IF YOU SMELL BASHING OR TROLLING.

    I’M NOT KICKING ANYONE OFF THE BIARD FOR THIS... BUT I MIGHT LOCK THE THREAD, AND MAKE YOU TAKE THE ARGUMENTS TO THE SPECIFIC THREADS ABOUT THEM INSTESD OF SNIPING AT EACH OTHER.

    CAPICE?
     
  22. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    This is it! This is the best opposing argument that I've encountered on the ST that's challenged/changed my perspective.

    I'm so glad that this opinion has now been declared an undeniable fact. Wow. How did the majority of fans, reviewers, media, critics, and creators of The Last Jedi miss the blatant sexism in this film? It cannot be because of differing opinions, because this has been declared a fact. Sweet! The ST forum sure is fun for fans of the ST. [face_hypnotized]
     
    K2771991 likes this.
  23. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Fair enough. I'm sorry.
     
  24. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    @godisawesome If you knew it would become that, your a wiser man then the rest of us:p

    Seriously though, I'll admit to my part in the affair. I should have just dropped everything and I need to get better about letting things go and cuaght up in the moment (online as well as in real life;)), so I'll apologize to everyone on both sides for my part in the whole thing - especially @devilinthedetails, who I doubt imagined I would contribute to such a disaster when she brought me into the thread by qouting me, and @Ender_and_Bean, since I doubly doubt wanted this thread to get so off-topic.

    Incidently, do you have any suggestions on were the conversations could go? I tried to figure that on my own and look around, but I could'nt figure out where they were best suited to go (hench why I kept asking). Though at the same time maybe it's better if you don't tell me, since it might be better that this all gets dropped fully and we all move on.

    I'm pretty sure your fine. Given the context of his post his issue was probobly with me, PJ and flight then anyone else.
     
  25. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    This is why I will not let my daughter watch the ST. She's only five. She does not need to see the story of a young girl who is repeatedly hurt (emotionally and physically) by an abuser, but keeps sticking with him because he'll eventually see the error of his ways and be forgiven by his dad. (SPOILERS: It's not actually his dad. It's a heartfelt moment where a terrible man forgives himself for being a terrible man)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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